SEASON 4 - PATCH 4.12 SOLO QUEUE TIER LIST
SEASON 4 UPDATE
SEASON 4 UPDATE
This List has been updated, and new versions are available via this link
Good day mates, and welcome to Patch 4.12, in this week's patch you'll start seeing a few more Alistar players jump into the field, some more aggressive Lucian play, and my favorite, Ezreals trying to hit themselves with their own essence flux! (I suspect many fails incoming)
Patch 4.12 Summary
Buffs: Ahri, Alistar, Ezreal, Garen, Kha'zix
Nerfs: Kassadin
Tweaks: Lucian
- Added a page dedicated to a Warwick explanation
- Added Garen Jungle
- Cleaned out Tier 1 top laners
- 7/19: Moved Lucian back up
- 7/20: Xerath mid moved up
- 7/24: Moved Zyra and Miss Fortune down
Use CTRL + F to Search For Champions
God Tier [Exceptionally Strong Choices]:
Mid-Lane Gods: Ziggs, Fizz
Jungle Gods: Amumu, Rammus, Maokai, Warwick, Wukong, Jarvan IV, Vi
AD Gods: Tristana, Kog'Maw, Lucian, Jinx
Top Lane Gods: Warwick, Fiora, Wukong
Support Gods: Morgana, Braum
Tier 1 [Strong/Preferred Choices]:
Mid-Lane: Swain, Katarina, Kassadin, Malzahar, Orianna, Kayle, Zyra, Talon, Heimerdinger, Lulu (AP), Ahri, Galio, Lux, Yasuo, Xerath, Anivia, Morgana, Cassiopeia, Brand, Syndra, Pantheon, Diana, Wukong
Jungle: Skarner, Fiddlesticks, Sejuani, Evelynn, Xin Zhao, Volibear, Udyr, Lee Sin, Gragas, Pantheon, Rengar, Aatrox,
AD Carry: Draven, Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, Graves, Varus, Ashe, Sivir
Top Lane: Rumble, Lulu, Renekton, Irelia, Jax, Nasus, Swain, Gragas, Trundle, Ryze, Malphite, Jarvan IV, Tryndamere, Rengar, Darius, Singed, Lee Sin, Heimerdinger, Yasuo, Pantheon, Teemo, Kennen, Udyr, Karma
Support: Thresh, Leona, Nami, Zyra, Sona, Karma, Lulu, Janna, Blitzcrank
Tier 2 [Viable/Balanced Choices]:
Mid-Lane: Twisted Fate, Akali, Viktor, Karma, Zed, Fiora, Annie, Lissandra, Kennen, Mordekaiser, Vladimir, Vel'Koz, Teemo, Elise, Sion, Ryze, Jayce,
Jungle: Nautilus, Kayle, Jax, Nocturne, Shaco, Elise, Master Yi, Tryndamere, Olaf, Zac, Dr. Mundo, Nasus, Shyvana, Leona, Trundle, Malphite, Diana, Zed
AD Carry: Corki, Ezreal, Vayne, Quinn
Top Lane: Nidalee, Riven, Yorick, Volibear, Aatrox, Shyvana, Kayle, Cho'gath, Elise, Vladimir, Olaf, Xin Zhao, Viktor, Poppy, Akali, Quinn, Vi, Dr. Mundo, Jayce, Lissandra, Zed
Support: Xerath, Annie, Fiddlesticks, Vel'Koz
Tier 3 [Needs Higher Skill/Knowledge Than Usual]:
Mid-Lane: Gragas, Karthus, Veigar, Leblanc, Nidalee (AP), Kha'Zix, Riven, Tristana, Cho'Gath, Fiddlesticks
Jungle: Hecarim, Kha'Zix, Nunu, Cho'Gath, Shen, Malzahar, Yasuo, Fiora, Riven, Poppy, Darius
AD Carry: Twitch, Twisted Fate, Kennen
Top Lane: Shen, Garen, Kha'Zix, Master Yi, Gangplank, Zac, Alistar, Mordekaiser, Sion, Vayne, Talon, Soraka, Nunu, Galio
Support: Taric, Alistar, Gragas, Volibear, Nautilus, Lux, Nunu, Kayle, Soraka, Teemo, Zilean, Maokai, Malphite, Anivia, Syndra, Veigar, Gangplank
Tier 4 [Low Effort to Benefit Ratios]:
Mid-Lane: Kog'maw, Zilean, Ezreal (AP), Urgot, Soraka, Janna
Jungle: Gangplank, Garen, Blitzcrank
AD Carry: Urgot
Top Lane: Urgot
Support: Nidalee, Orianna, Poppy, Elise, Galio, Shen, Yorick, Lissandra, Ashe, Leblanc
Instructions and Caveats:
- Champions in BOLD I will talk about shortly
- Champions UNDERLINED may be over/undervalued, but aren't/haven't played enough for me to make a better judgement.
- Within each tier the champions are strongest from left to right, but within a tier each champion's strength is relatively close. This is especially true for Tiers 2 and 3 where these champions are ALL highly playable and player dependent on how strong they are in-game.
- This tier list takes data from ALL players; however, since the majority of players fall in the first three tiers, the majority of data points will come from there.
- Win Rates are important in analyzing each champion's strength, but are not the end-all criteria for any champion's position.
- The creator of this list is diamond, so there may be some personal bias towards higher tier play on certain champions.
Champion Explanations
- Ahri [Tier 1 Mid] - Ahri's latest buff is actually much more substantial than it seems, since it allows her to full wave clear that much sooner. This allows her to roam and snowball far easier than before.
- Alistar [Tier 3 Support] - Wow, he got a buff and got moved down? Yes...what's happened now with Alistar is that since they've made his level 6 diving ability stronger, more Alistars are diving at level 6, dying, and snowballing the enemy team to victory. Working as intended...
- Fizz [God Tier Mid] - Fizz has been doing extremely well lately as AD carries are stronger than before and are in dire need of assassinating. His double gap closer also gives him the ability to take down Tristana after her jump and juke her ult. (We all know how popular Tristana has gotten...)
- Gragas [Tier 1 Jungle] - His new kit actually gives him some pretty solid damage and utility.
- Irelia [Tier 1 Top] - Better nerf Irelia....with the recent nerf on Jax someone's gonna have to claim the throne again, and from the looks of it Irelia is well positioned.
- Kha'Zix [Tier 3 Jungle] - While buffed, it doesn't seem like it was quite enough to give him the same snowballing abilities that he needs to conquer.
- Lucian [God Tier ADC] - Seems like the tweak was actually a buff, moving him back up to God Tier
- Lulu [Tier 1 Top] - I personally think Lulu is deserving of God Tier. However, true to my word I won't let personal bias play a huge role in placing champions. Since her win rate is pretty average as things go, I'll leave her as Tier 1.
- Sejuani [Tier 1 Jungle] - Sejuani is underplayed for sure, but at the same time since Amumu is never banned and/or picked for the most part, he's still the superior jungler.
- Taric [Tier 3 Support] - My poor Taric...personal bias has definitely played a strong role for Taric in this case, but he's simply outclassed by the most popular supports in the current meta (see: Morgana). It's just very hard for him to get going in lane or outside as an initiator. He still has his place against or in an all AD comp, but those are rare.
- Tristana [God Tier ADC] - Tristana's benefitted so much from a variety of factors and is simply the safer, similarly ranged champion when compared against Kog'maw.
- Twitch [Tier 3 ADC] - You guys didn't really think I'd do it, but I'm doing what should have been done 2 patches ago. Twitch is bad now. Sorry :)
For a full analysis on champion changes this patch, check out this link!
- The purpose of this list is for discussion and to provide a starting point for hero selection.
Agree? Disagree? Comment below!
Zyra as a support God and Thresh and Leona in TIER 1?!! You have let me DOWN SSJ. DOWNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.
ReplyDeleteWhile the Zyra may be opinion biased and the fact that I've seen so many TERRIBLE Zyra supports as a Lulu support (Yes, that is my new main support now, not Sona. Sorry Sona fans, I'm crying too), Thresh and Leona are just so good in teamfights, Thresh maybe less so than Leona, but still. They have such great synergy with the ADCs and Leona specfically is great at peeling, is tanky, and has great engage/disengage.
Btw, I have no problem with Lulu being a God, SSJ. I myself think she's one op mother****er, both mid and support wise (though my bias is more towards her being a support god from maining, DON'T JUDGE ME). Her win rate is also kinda skewed by a huge ban rate (kinda like Exhibit A: LB, Exhibit B: Evelynn, and Exhibit C: Lee Sin), so we can't argue win rate with her.
Although I would love to discuss that. Does anyone else agree with me that Lulu is OP, and why or why not?
In the explanations it's write -Taric [Tier 2 Support], but he is in the tier 3 '-'
ReplyDeleteI think Lulu is OP (by OP it means one of the best champions at the moment). I hate laning against her. She has a very good harass, silence (basically the best negative status on the game), a shield, a slow, a movement speed buff than she can cast on her allies or on herself, and a ult that basically always saves her life when you think you're about to kill her. She is very annoying to face especially on top lane, where she can harass her opponent all the time with almost no fear of being attacked.
ReplyDeleteTier 1 [Strong/Preferred Choices]: Top Lane: Rumble o.O ???
ReplyDeleteFixed
ReplyDeleteRumble has been on the rise recently, and more than deserves his Tier 1 placement. Tons of sustain, tanky and yet has a lot of damage for teamfights (specfically his ult if aligned properly), provides some good utility with his E, has a lot of spammable spells if controlled and can be greatly useful in Danger Zone, can avoid harass with his W, great poke, and did I mention that his ult is gamechanging?
ReplyDeleteHe's also doing really well against the current lineup of top laners, and his win rate is the 4th highest of a top laner, with 53% in Bronze~Gold.
Is it me or is lucian even more broken than before? Been seeing a lot lately doing so well. Lucian has now been added to my ban list because his dueling potential is so much higher. And trust me I've never ever banned an adc before because when I get to first pick wukong I know I will be able to oneshot them, even if fed. Whenever my team is without me lucian seems to 1v4. Thoughts? Also wukong has gotten stronger as a mid lane assassin as he hard counters tristana by oneshotting her and his knockup stops her escape, and shes mega popular now.
ReplyDeleteHe may actually buffed by this recent patch, but he already deserved Tier 1 placement anyway, as SSJ said, because of the skill he is. I agree with you though, I am seeing him do better lately, but then again, I'm in Gold and there's more skill required.
ReplyDeleteAgree with everything else though.
As for an ADC I WANT in God, that would be Draven. Seriously people, every time I've supported a Draven he ends up winning the laning phase, snowballing, and is even able to 1v3 ganks that come his way. That may just be because I'm a good support, but seriously.
Man have I seen lucian doing work. I was playing amumu, and lucian could easily 1v1 me with infinite mobility and blade. I agree with draven being god tier, especially with a thresh paired with him their pick potential and peel is insane. Plus he snowballs almost as toxicly as a tyndamere.
ReplyDeleteGreat list just a couple of things...
ReplyDelete1: Why is Corki so low? His trading in lane is still extremely strong and with tri-force he is a mid game monster. Def higher than Ashe/Varus.
2: TF should be higher. His ability to gank lanes and get kills while also maintaining good farm and having good waveclear makes him a very strong mid laner. He has perfect synergy for ganks (Gold Card to Lee Q/Gold Card to Elise Cocoon) and high siege potential with blue card/lich bane proc.
3: Lee Sin should be WAY higher. There is no way that sej or voli is better than Lee.
4: Mid Urgot? lol
5: And can you explain what happened to Kennen? Why do I never see him anymore?
Twitch still 100 times better than quinn though
ReplyDeleteI'll elaborate these points.
ReplyDelete1. Strong with triforce? Yes. Dependent on that item? Oh yes. And that's the first problem. He's also incredibly mana dependent without a manamune, his AA range is pretty short for an ADC (making him a much less safer pick than Ashe and Varus), he lacks ANY form of CC (Ashe and Varus both have a lot of that), low base ms (again, Ashe and Varus), and he's also a very skill reliant ADC similar to Vayne (but in a completely different regard, his playstyle is NOT like Vayne's).
Also, his win rate is 49%~50% in Bronze~Gold, compared to Ashe's 51% and other popular ADCs.
I really think he's a Tier 3 as a matter of fact. It can be a bit hard to support him so much as a Lulu or a Morg.
2. I already feel like you're giving some pro bias at this point, what with Corki AND TF being extremely skill reliant. Perfect synergy for ganks? Sure. But how susceptible to ganks? Very, and I mean very very very. He actually has a hard time in lane due to being outbursted or outpoked by enemy mids, and his waveclear is terrible if he's poked and/or ganked. He also has low base MS (not helping him being ganked), requires fast reaction times for his Pick a Card, and again, very skill reliant. Tier 2 is the way to go with him. Also, a 48% win rate does not deserve a higher spot than Tier 2.
3. Absolutely agree. I see your pro bias again, but even I think that him being skill reliant is NOT stopping him from having undeniably one of the best synergies with a team! His ult, Q, W, his whole KIT works wonders.
4. Trying to appeal to Korean players who do actually play that.
5. Kennen is just terrible now. I disagree with SSJ as he's been ousted by the top meta for a while now, what with squishy tops falling out of favor drastically, but he's also terrible in his most popular roels ADC and Mid!
But let's look at them one at a time:
Mid: Incredibly item dependent, outsted by better burst and better poke from popular mids, weak against any team with hard disengage, a LONNNNNNG CD on his ult, and can't do well late game without snowballing, which is hard.
ADC: He requires physical damage steroids, HUGE communication with his support, kills, resource micromanagement, huge positioning, tons of matchup knowledge, ability to time agresssion, and overall a huge skillcap. ALL of these keep him from being even a balanced ADC, as that is too much skill for Bronze~Gold, which is what this tier list targets. It's not helped that if the game prolongs 40 minutes his damage falls off exponentially and he's countered by almost any lane opponent with a strong disengage and/or a knockback early game, and that's hard considering the most popular ADC right now is Tristana, which has both of those qualities and scales great late game. Also, if Kennen is going against a Janna, you have lost all hope.
1. He's not low, he's balanced on the border of strong, he just lacks in utility what he doesn't make up with pure damage.
ReplyDelete2. TF's very popular right now, but I think it's without cause, he's just balanced at the moment.
3. Lee is very skill reliant, and people generally don't execute him well enough to be consistently strong through the entire game.
4. He can be played mid
5. Kennen looks like a rat. That being said, he's still strong, but not popular right now. I have a friend who just mained him to Diamond. I think he's best top at the moment.
Why is Miss Fortune God tier?
ReplyDeleteAm I the only person who thinks this ADC Tier List is really, really whack?
ReplyDeletei'll bet you haven't faced him
ReplyDeleteOn point 3 I'd take sej over Lee any day, she has a weaker early game but her ganks are just as vicious and her ult is better. And honestly I'd take her even over amumu. They all have that gapcloser but hers doesn't need to be to an ally or enemy. Sej goes where she want. Whenever I play her I normally request my team to go mostly high damage just because she can tank and cc enough for a whole team.
ReplyDeleteI also have a few questions
ReplyDelete1. I honestly think Zed belongs in tier-3 despite my love for him.
2. I think nocturne should be a little higher, still one of the best counter-gankers.
3. Garen jungle is definitely god-tier after the buffs.
4. Swain deserves God-tier IMO.
5. This one is biased for sure, but I think lux should get God, and I say she may become the new gragas.
6. I think Xerath deserves tier-1 now.
7. Volibear is a god-tier now, the Sotag buffs make him a lot stronger.
I've been thinking this for a while but I'm wondering why Galio is so low. I just build him mr and mana regen to start and then damage. He provides a counter to most AP support (most of the meta) and provides great mid game utility by way of his mobility and cc not to mention the more tanky he gets the more power he gains. I really think you should reconsider his position.
ReplyDeleteAre you talking about galio support and I'm assuming you are. Galio is very situational as support as he has high mana costs and isn't too tanky against ads.
ReplyDeleteHow is twitch silly?
ReplyDeleteHe's way too easy to counter, honestly.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what to think of him, aside from me not seeing him preform well, he does have a low win rate.
Strong damage, no mana, shield, slow, one of the strongest ults in the game and can win every lane imo.
ReplyDeleteyou call a idiot play thresh and leona , how they will do == zyra got dmg , can do damage as ap =.='' a idiot zyra also can =.='' ( this tier list for bronze , silver and gold )
ReplyDeleteYou should really consider ad fizz (top and mid) and ad nidalee (mid), ad fizz counter a lot of top laners and he's really hard to deal with because he does mixed damage, and ad nidalee (mid) can instakill the squishy mages/assassins that normally go in mid an roam to snowball harder
ReplyDeleteHi there. Can you explain why Akali is tier 2 mid while Talon is tier 1? I feel like her ult warrants her a place seeing as how Katarina (who has similarly crappy laning) is tier 1. She also has similar stickiness as Fizz who's ranked God tier.
ReplyDeleteHow has itemization helped MF? If anything, she seems weaker because most ADCS rush IE + SS/PD and accelerate their auto-attack scaling. Since MF's Q can't crit., abilities lose relevance sooner and she thus falls off faster than before. Her Grievous Wounds on W also matters less when her opponents buy serious lifesteal only much later. She scales well with AD and does alright with AS but is definitely not the type of ADC that is in love with BoRK. BoRK just does more damage on virtually any ADC.
ReplyDeleteI think MF is now Tier 1 at best. Before 4.10, I'd have agreed with her being in God Tier for Solo-Que. However, even then, she was basically never played in competitive. Just like Kog, she has high strengths and clear weaknesses. Tristana is the only one that has essentially no weakness at all if she can reach full-build.
I'm happy to see Irelia move up. Generally agree with the top tier list, other than a few apparently irreconcilable differences (Fiora....).
ReplyDeleteI still think Ryze mid should be higher. Argued a lot about this on the last tier list, but basically - safe laner, stupid scaling. Definitely not bottom tier 2 material (I mean, he's supposed to be worse than *Sion*? That hurts, man).
Lucian mid should be on the list somewhere, his late game is absolutely monstrous if you build CDR w/Iceborn Gauntlet. It's impossible to catch him with the dash and slow spamming, it's impossible to siege against him with a 30 second cooldown on The Culling - he's pretty oppressive at full build. Basically a mini Kassadin with guns.
3. lol
ReplyDelete5. Wait for the Ziggs nerfs. And the Orianna nerfs. Then, maybe.
6. Generally agree.
7. No matter how tanky Volibear is, he's still absurdly kiteable and is outright useless if the other team has Ziggs or Morgana. Too many issues for nothing but slightly bigger numbers to help. He also doesn't enjoy the fact that pretty much every ADC has cheap and easy access to %HP damage.
1. I'm not sure I would call Corki low on utility. He's got long range poke, a very strong escape/gapcloser, %armor shred that your entire team benefits from, and his Q grants vision - all very useful things. Also, his damage at 0-2 completed items is absolutely stupid. He's definitely not a go-to ADC, but if your comp benefits from grouping up early, I think he's a strong pick. And even if it doesn't, you can still dumpster Kog'Maws in lane.
ReplyDelete2. I dunno man, I heard that point and click 2 second hard CC on a ~4-5 second cooldown is pretty good. Also global vision.
Corki really isnt that great, with a weakness nobody seems to have touched upon being that with the meta shifting to more late game team comps, especially late game adc's, his damage just can't compete with the likes of tristana, kog'maw, caitlyn etc. He definitely spikes in the mid game with the triforce/ last whisper build, but with games dragging on more and more frequently, in addition to the fact this tier list is low-elo centric where players struggle to finish out games sub 30 minutes, he doesnt compare to the hyper carries dominating the current meta.
ReplyDeletewhy is wukong god top ?
ReplyDeletewhy is wukong god top ?
ReplyDeleteNice tier list as always. I do follow them regularly. I would like if you would answer more questions though. Like why is MF and Zyra god? etc.
ReplyDelete"Fizz [God Tier Mid] - Fizz has been doing extremely well lately as AD carries are stronger than before and are in dire need of assassinating." This time when I was saying, 2 patch ago, that he was bound to replace LB for the AP-assassination crown. Hmmm this smell, I <3 being right :D
ReplyDeleteThresh less so than Leona? Please explain, he has some of the strongest cc in the game and a lantern to reposition your ADC. Zyra isn't a god tier support agreed but I feel god tier is Thresh Braum Morg Nami with Leona being a very high tier 1
ReplyDeletei agree,a fed akali means surrender 20,no one buy pink ward in bronze and silver
ReplyDeleteTalon's silence allows him to trade with other mid laners without giving them a chance to fight back, and then slowing them as they recover and he runs away. Akali's only CC exists in the form of her W slow, and while she does a lot of damage when ahead, it can sometimes be hard to trade effectively with champions with superior waveclear or targeted CC. Getting to level 6 while ahead can be pretty rare, while other champions like Kassadin offer improved mobility and more utility.
ReplyDeleteseriously though, the silence. and Fizz has the ability to completely make ultimates and cc whiff, as well as damage reduction and ignoring unit collision.
I think Talon is just easier to play, also.
lee and eve should be moved up in jng and rammus moved down
ReplyDeleteDraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaven
ReplyDeleteWarwick God tier toplane? :O, Can someone explain how to build and how to play him effectively?
ReplyDeleteAlright, those are agreeable, and I forgot to add lucian mid, being at least viable in mid-lane now.
ReplyDeleteI think Talon's power is still underrated.
ReplyDeleteI normally run 2 faerie charms with hp pots and wards to start, I get a chalice and boots on my first back. On my next back I start building zhonyas. If you pay him like that and harass allot, there aren't many champs that can keep up. The range is great and with the speed buff his skill gives you can easily chase to get that final rotation off. I've never really experienced the mana shortage you're talking about.
ReplyDeleteYou can start by clicking warwick's name for an entire article explaining it.
ReplyDeleteLook bro, I love Galio more than everybody here, I even use him as my icon, but even I can see that anything Galio is capable of doing as a support is done better by some of the more popular choices. As an aggressive mage, Vel'Koz and Xerath outrange him and sustain their mana better. As an aggressive tank, Leona is tankier and has ALOT more hard cc. Even Nautilus would be a far superior pick to him. As a defensive support... Braum... just, BRAUM. While we're on the subject of Braum, good luck getting a full ultimate in with that passive of his stunning you in half a second. Overall, Galio is far better off as an ap bruiser at mid than a support of any kind.
ReplyDeleteAs for your build, I'd recommend switching to an Ancient Coin build, the active of Talisman make getting your ult off easier.
Wow, sorry I didn't see that.... *brainfart*
ReplyDeleteI hate that there's never any love for Quinn. If played correctly, I truly believe she's tier 1. You just need good positioning with her. Her blind makes her excel at dueling/escaping being last hit, her vault is also an escape and great for re positioning/kiting, she has a wide range vision ability that's great for avoiding ganks or stealing objectives, and her ult is not only an escape, but a great dueling/chasing ability. LONG LIVE QUINN!
ReplyDeleteIn regards to Sion, it's more of a Sion being a good champion than Ryze being a bad champion. Interesting Lucian build, I'll look into it, thanks for letting me know :)
ReplyDeleteYeah, I wasn't even thinking. You're right. Pretty much all changes in itemization didn't help her. From BT changes to Crit/AS changes to the new ER.
ReplyDeleteNor do I think Essence Reave helped her out as much as it (potentially) helped other carries.
Lol @ Fizz being god tier now. No, just no.
ReplyDeletehowever Ziggs is 100% accurate
ReplyDeleteI can't even understand this comment. Care to elaborate?
ReplyDeleteWell for one, I would switch Thresh with Leona. C'mon, Thresh's win rate is 48% from Bronze~Gold for god's sake, and Leona's a solid 53%.
ReplyDeleteThresh strongest CC in the game? I can give almost the same argument for Leona, but Thresh also has low mobility, requires more skill than Leona, his AA windup is slow, his passive hurts him if you are lax on your souls, as mid game you can be a very squishy tank, he's very weak against high range supports (What do you know, Morgana, Braum, and Nami all come to mind), and while you say that the lantern does reposition, his Q can be easily dodged due to its delay compared to Blitzcrank's grab.
Leona does not have all of these problems. She's extremely tanky with good peel, has HUGE amounts of CC and a gap closer that works wonders to engage/disengage, she's wonderful in lane with popular or powerful ADCs (again, wonderful synergy), and she has WONDERFUL synergy with teams, especially with locking down champions with a gamechanging ult that she doesn't have to jump in to use (i.e. a better Thresh ult).
Besides, I was arguing that both of them were god O.O, you didn't have to take that as me hating Thresh.
To me the God Supports would be more like:
Braum, Lulu (main bias), Morgana, Leona, Nami, Thresh (Nami and/or Thresh can be Tier 1 instead, although I argue that all of these supports are God).
1. I'm not as hard on Zed, and I actually believe that Silver skill that he's still pretty balanced. Although I do agree, if this was a Bronze tier list he would be Tier 4 in a jiffy O.O
ReplyDelete2. I don't know what to say here as I hardly ever see him. He could be undervalued, but I don't know, he's more of a Plat/Diamond pick. He can be squishy if you don't snowball hard enough with him, has somewhat unreliable CC (note: SOMEWHAT), and he's not innately tanky like other popular junglers (see Vi and Jarvan). But I'll play him since I don't see him enough to actually agree with what I'm saying XD.
3. XD I really want to play him now since I still don't see him in Gold.
4. I'm sorry Gadex... I have some supreme bias against Swain. Feel free to skip this since it is biased.
I just... his early game is pretty challenging, he's really mana hungry in teamfights, I find he's very weak to people with shields, and his pushing potential is very small early game. He also has what Vayne has: A completely different playstyle from other popular mids. He becomes a NIGHTMARE for Bronze/Silver players, and yet his win rate is really high, so again, this might just be bias, but does it seem to you that most people who DO play Swain either main him or at least play him often?
5. She's definitely CLOSER now than ever to God, but Tier 1 still. That's actually not so much a biased statement you said. She's easy to learn, she has almost no effective counter (say what you say, even with a small amount of knowledge of matchups I never have a problem with specfically 1 person), her spells provide some great AoE, her poke late game is AMAZING, she has great burst damage, any person who smartcasts has a FANTASTIC time with her, her ultimate is undeniably something that makes people ragequit and has a pretty short CD, and her shield is highly underestimated!
Negatives: Slightly weaker late-game, somewhat mana-hungry, squishy (like most mids though), somewhat lack of escape, long CDs early/mid game, she needs careful positioning (this isn't becoming much of a problem anymore thanks to what hopefully will be a Ziggs, Orianna, and/or Syndra nerf), and she's skillshot oriented, which means while she's easy to learn, she's hard to master.
So yeah, top of Tier 1 please? I know the negatives are substantial, but c'mon.
Riot, don't take this as an opportunity to nerf her, I like her :(
6. His win rate shouts Tier 2 (solid 50% all around), but his early game, weakness against ANY type of hard CC, skill required to play him, high CDs, and his requirement of very VERY careful positioning, Tier 3 for the Magus Ascendant.
7. Ctrl-C Ctrl-V what Othesemo says. Although I like him because in my mind he is one of the most balanced junglers that rewards you for your high risk and your skill in plays. If he wasn't so CD dependent and so easy to kite, I would be with you on him going to Tier 1.
If this tier list wasn't based solely off of Bronze~Gold, I would agree with your ADC tier list.
ReplyDeleteThen again, I don't play ADC as much as I SEE it as a support which I play a LOT.
But to me, it's more like this:
God: Tristana, DRAVEN
Tier 1: Jinx, Caitlyn, Lucian
Tier 2: Miss Fortune, Kog'Maw, Ashe, Ezreal, Vayne, Varus, Sivir
Tier 3: Graves, Corki, Twisted Fate, Twitch, Quinn
Tier 4: Kennen, Urgot
Let me talk these people:
Tristana: You can already tell by her rising popularity and her quickly rising win rate (at the time of this comment, 53%), but she's just a MONSTER. As SSJ says: "Tristana's benefitted so much from a variety of factors and is simply the safer, similarly ranged champion when compared against Kog'maw."
Draven: Win rate again (51~52% among Bronze~Gold), but more straightforward. Huge damage, 2 steroids, a great disruptive E, very consistent damage, great burst, a nice global ultimate, probably one of the highest potential ADC damage in the game with huge snowball potential, easy farming, and did I mention powerful harass and a late game that rivals popular ADCs? Not to mention as a support I have NEVER had a bad draven (then again, I could just be a good support).
Ezreal: Tier 2, not Tier 3. Do not underestimate his kit, teamfight synergy (thank his Essence flux and his ult), his late game potential, and his nice escapes. (although if you're arguing win rate, Tier 3 may be right)
Sivir: Think you're overestimating her. She's almost the squishiest ADC (Vayne and Kog beat her), she has short AA range compared to more safe ADCs like Caitlyn and Tristana, she is SOOOO dependent on farm to a fault, and she has no CC at all, unlike all the popular ADCs and good ADCs (for god's sake, even Draven has a CC move). Her win rate itself is 49%.
Graves: Self-explanatory, both his kit and his win rate.
Corki: You're REALLY thinking too highly of him. He's very mana dependent, very very skill reliant (Platinum doesn't have this problem, but Bronze~Silver COMPLETELY does), his AA range is small compared to more popular and safer ADCs, he lacks any form of CC, and he has low base Movement Speed compared to again popular ADCs.
Quinn: I think Quinn fanboys say it better, but I'll just say this. YOU THINK A BIRD IS TIER 4 OMG WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU
Jk, but seriously, Tier 4 is not her, although she definitely needs a buff soon.
Jinx, Caitlyn, Lucian, Miss Fortune, Kog'Maw, Ashe, Vayne, Varus, Twisted Fate, Twitch, Kennen, Urgot: Agree with you.
TL;DR: You're definitely right on your platinum tier list, I'm just giving some pointers to make it also a bronze~Gold tier list. :D
I disagree with Akali being hard to trade effectively. She has INCREDIBLE burst damage, good sustain, amazing ganking potential, high mobility (makes her a nightmare to some popular mids), huge sticking potential, great chases, and do not underestimate her W. It's extremely useful.
ReplyDeleteWhy did you upvote your own comment?
ReplyDeleteBecause he has GREAT burst damage, can snowball very easily, has a gamechanging ult that not only has a multi-person knockup but can provide some good damage in teamfights, he has amazing juke potential (Goldies love him, and so do I), and he has overall great damage output compared to Jax and Renekton.
SSJ's champion explanation:
ReplyDelete"Fizz has been doing extremely well lately as AD carries are stronger than before and are in dire need of assassinating. His double gap closer also gives him the ability to take down Tristana after her jump and juke her ult. (We all know how popular Tristana has gotten...)"
Also, to add to SSJ, he has extreme presence all the way from early game to late game, an extremely mobile mid laner (that makes him a nightmare to popular mids such as Ziggs and Orianna), he's very good at farming without taking almost any damage whatsoever, he deals TONS of damage without snowballing, and did I mention his ganks are top notch?
Did I mention his win rate has been rising to 51% and is still rising?
Nidalee atleast T1 man, she is soooo strong. getting rektt.
ReplyDeleteWell let's see, due to the nerfs to her a WHILE ago, mid nidalee has become pretty balanced, and we've talked about this for a WHILE, so it's not my fault if you didn't see those changes.
ReplyDeleteIf you're talking about Top Nidalee, however, I will be quick to point out that she has no innate CC, she's somewhat mana hungry, enemy CC (which top laners tend to have) wrecks her, she's hard to get used to since you have to go up and front, she has low damage early game, her skillshots are easily blocked and/or dodged and they do even less damage now, and she's really easy to dive.
How dare you call Pikachu a rat. He scares the crap out of me :(.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget he benefits heavily from the athenes nerf
ReplyDeleteTF also suffers from the fact that almost all of the most popular supports can absolutely destroy him before he can react during his ultimate. This means that if he doesn't get the follow up that he needs, champions like Nami, Zyra, and Leona can all-in him, even at lower level ranked play.
ReplyDeleteNeedless to say, the most popular support, Morgana, also makes it very difficult for him to accomplish anything with her black shield and double CC on landing.
I build that later because if you don't go mana then early you'll run out. If rather get the mana then first, then MR (and consequently ap) then movespeed. You won't use it till L6 anyways. I've tried your way of doing it and don't prefer it. Don't knock my method until you try it.
ReplyDeleteWhen was this ever said to be a tier list for Bronze to Gold?
ReplyDeleteAnd why do you group it up with Gold? Nerfplz wrote an article about how 80% of players are in Bronze/Silver, I don't think Gold is fair to group up just to make it 90% when Bronze and Silver respectively hold more than a third and Gold holds less than a tenth.
Olaf Buffed
ReplyDeleteExactly, she's been god for a few patches now but I really don't think she deserves it.
ReplyDeleteYES! MY DEAR FIZZ IS FINALLY GOD TIER!
ReplyDeleteFirst off I would like to say that I just don't think he fits in God Tier, and most certainly not ahead of Katarina. Mainly because he is inconsistent and is too much of a risky pick. But also because he is useless to the team if he does not start snowballing ahead.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention, his laning phase is actually really tough (especially against some champions). He has no ranged attacks, which makes him vulnerable to poke while farming. I know what your thinking.. "Just dodge it!" Well Fizz has mana problems early on and cannot afford to dodge most attacks.
I repeat, you NEED to kill your laner if you want to be useful. 3 and 6 are your all in levels. You go in, and its either kill or be killed, because if you don't, the enemy laner with zone you and stop you from farming the entire game.
I see why he is FOTM and why he can be overhyped at times. He probably snowballs harder then anyone else, and can carry IF he is fed. His E is probably the best skill in the game if you consider it's cooldown. But the fact of the matter you cannot carry with consistancy like you can other God Tier champs.
Side note: since when does 51% automatically mean God Tier?
I stopped reading when you said Corki is the best ADC.
ReplyDeleteIf he even gets to late game before getting raped by the other, better ADCs.
ReplyDeleteA while ago actually.
ReplyDeleteAnd besides, most tier lists DO target Bronze~Gold. The reason why is that Bronze~Gold are where most people ARE! Metalol, reignofgaming, cloth5 (a while ago), forum posts, etc. etc. etc.
The reason why is because OF most players being in Bronze~Gold (I highly doubt that there are more players in Silver than there are in Gold anymore), and that's where most of the solo queue games are played.
I think Shyvana deserves to be higher than Tier-2.. She is pretty good
ReplyDeleteYou lost credibility when you said "he is useless to the team if he does not start snowballing ahead".
ReplyDeleteThat is ABSOLUTELY not true for a Fizz.
What you should have said was, "Fizz needs farm to do well", which IS true.
Poking at your side note, I said it was 51% and RISING. You can't just ignore the latter.
Fizz is GREAT at farming!!! You know nothing about Fizz in that 3rd paragraph. His W's passive is great at getting last hits, and his E, which as a Fizz you max out first, is also pretty good at farming mid game, no matter how behind you are!
Not to mention Fizz is VERY strong against popular mids, such as Syndra and Orianna, that can't do ANYTHING if you get close.
As for Katarina, oh she ulted? I E'd. R+Q+W.
It's really that easy.
It's not so much about his early game as it is about how powerful he can be if you're agressive, which is HOW you play Fizz. If you're playing passively, how do you expect to do well in midlane in the first place?!?
Brace yourselves!Fizz nerf incoming.
ReplyDeleteZhonya's is a core item on TF for exactly that reason - his ultimate is fantastic for baiting out CC. It's also not uncommon for him to run double mobility summoners, making it very difficult to actually land skillshots on him. It's a weakness, for sure, but one that can be overcome or even used to your advantage with proper building.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Morgana is a very dubious counter. Twisted Fate is not generally lacking in magic damage to pop Black Shield - it's requires very, very, very precise timing to Black Shield Pick a Card, but *not* Wild Cards. It's also worth mentioning that Black Shield has more than double the cooldown of Pick a Card at max rank.
untill the last few patches shes her winrate has been miles ahead of the other adc's and its still rather steady.
ReplyDeletequinn in tier 4 lol have u played him lately
ReplyDeletelikewise
ReplyDeleteIt isn't. The original post explicitly says "This tier list takes data from ALL players; however, since the majority of players fall in the first three tiers, the majority of data points will come from there. " I'm not entirely certain where the 'exclusively bronze-gold' meme got started.
ReplyDeletethresh is 10 times better than zyra
ReplyDeletelucian is actually better than before: check the top post on reddit
ReplyDeleteI just feel that Rengar is super-strong right now, and I think he is too low in T1 on both jungle and top lane. In the jungle, he is basically like eve, without perma stealth but compensated by more burst. He is really annoying and absolutely ALL Rengar I have faced in soloQ or duo-ranked carryed their games pretty hard (even if all their teammates were doing shit).
ReplyDeleteTryndamere, Rengar probably deserves to be just after Irelia.
In the jungle, I would put Rengar just after Eve or Xin.
Rengar is now ban worthy after Braum, Morg, Fizz and Yas and Eve, as a 6th priority.
Will be next patch, he didnt get buffed currently, once those buffs come out it may be time to say good bye WW, Irelia, Fiora, Jax, etc.. He is already pretty underrated and these buffs will just show how strong he has been.
ReplyDeleteFYI TO EVERYONE ELSE:
The buffs are as follows:
Undertow (Q)
Cooldown reduced to 7 from 8 seconds. (ADC's now stay slowed longer, hence why Olaf dropped before and now HE WILL RISE AGAIN!)
Vicious Strikes (W)
Incoming healing effects are now increased by up to 50% from up to 40% (1% increased per 2% missing, up from 1% per 2.5%). (Can't kill me bitches!)
Ragnarok (R)
Cooldown rescaled to 100 / 90 / 80 from 120 / 100 / 80.
Dude Fizz is the hardest Assassin to peel of your ADC in the game due to Q, E(god i fkin hate this shitt so much), and R. He also counters a very strong and risingly popular Swain.
ReplyDelete"If played correctly" god i love it when people use that as their argument, once you say that your are also saying that she needs higher skill to perform at that tier 1 level. This is a tier list from Bronze-Gold, barely anyone in this elo is capable of having that kind of skill. I kind of agree with you though as she can be a great counter to Warwick. However, once Olaf gets buffed, he will be played more as a that counter.
ReplyDeleteAt one point I think this list was VERY inductive of who was strong and who was not. Recently the list seems to be a little weird.
ReplyDeleteTop lane is the weirdest thing to me. I guess as a top laner I know the most about it, so I'm not really qualified to talk about the meta in other lanes. Seeing Jax and Renekton under Wukong in the top lane is pretty comical. If you're not an imbecile that wastes abilities on Wukong's clone then he sould be no problem to win lane against. Fiora I can deal with, but I wouldn't put her in god tier...
Another thing to add in top lane is an escape and hard CC. Neither Fiora and Warwick have an escape meaning if you can't shove the lane any or you have to waste flash or get killed. I think an escape is VITAL in the top lane considering how much you can get camped. From my experience in the top lane, if you want a successful gank you need one of two thing: heavy damage (Fiora is a good example) or Hard CC. This is why pre-six Warwick can get shut down COMPLETELY.
My main gripe with the god tier isn't really who's in it, but who's NOT in it. (Which I guess kinda go hand in hand)
Jax, Gragas, Renekton, Irelia, and Ryze are really good examples of champions who I think deserve the status over the current god tier.
Jax I think is unaffected by the changes, you can still get an easy level 2-3 cheese if you play it right. He still does way too much damage in the early levels and his late game is very hard to deal with.
As I see more good Gragas players, I see the more potential in him. I don't see any really good counters to him, and he can lane pretty well against all the current top laners that people play. Give it some time, and I think Gragas will be an the AP croc. (when Renekton was pick or ban)
Renekton I think just has to much of a solid kit to not be in the top tier. Renekton can stomp lane pretty hard against a lot of current top lamers (Shyvana in specific that people LOVE to play in solo queue for some reason and Jax). Renekton is debatable, but I have been playing him since I was level 20 all the way up to Plat so maybe it more of me knowing how to utilize his kit really well. I think he is doable for God for his counter play.
Irelia is just a monster late game and can hold up or win lane if you play her correctly, and her sustain is nearly impossible to deal with if you win 2 LS quints.
I like Ryze because of his ablity to counter so many top laners. Ryze can so easily zone any melee in the top lane making him super easy to play and leaving your opponent wanting to rip their hair out. If they try to go for CS, simply kill them. :p
PS: I think Miss Fortune is something to look over as well. :3
My personal tier list for the new patch.
ReplyDeleteTop lane gods:Tryndamere, warwick, wukong
Jungle gods: Amumu, rammus, warwick,, fiddlesticks, wukong
Midlane gods: Wukong, ziggs
Adc gods:Lucian, tristana, kog'maw, draven
Support gods:Morgana, braum
This is just personal opinion on the strong picks in solo queu so I don't suggest changing this tier list.
" Me and others argued over how the tier list is **mainly** for the first 3 tiers, and SSJ confirmed it."
ReplyDelete"It's **exclusively** Bronze~Gold"
I'm noticing a strange inconsistency in your adverbs.
It also seems relatively strange to me that SSJ would take data from ALL players, if he did not intend to make observations about ALL players.
Very underrated, late game, you 100-0 any carry with an all armor pen build. Even though his lanning phase struggles, it is still a lot better than most late-game assassins due to his ranged W.
ReplyDeleteOracles trinket bud
ReplyDeleteTHAT ALISTAR DESCRIPTION OMG IM DYING XD
ReplyDeletevery sarcasm much funny.
By the very definition of Gold being a higher skill bracket, there are far fewer players in it compared to Silver.
ReplyDeleteI actually have to disagree. As a primary top-laner (but not yet ranked, almost...), I can easily tell you Wukong deserves his glory. It's not a matter of being an idiot on his clone, it's the fact that you're already mid combo and Wukong has silently stepped off. It's quite easy to fool Jax actually. He tries to stun, but right before he does, you W away and he sits there thinking you're stunned and proceeds to carry out the rest. Wukong's ult is also the strongest in the game from what I remember reading. Renekton is just far too weak now to be considered anything. The ONLY problem that faces Wukong is the fact that early-game, he is quite squishy. Give him the Cleaver and Tabi, and that is easily rectified.
ReplyDeleteWukong, once Level 2, can begin to start pounding away quarter of health at a time (on DB start) with ease. Jax shouldn't have been pushed down a tier from the recent nerf, I agree, but NEVER put him above Wukong.
If you rush a cleaver on wukong, you're doing something wrong.
ReplyDeleteJarvan IV sounds like a hilariously easy matchup for Ryze. Like, he is everything Ryze preys upon - a melee with no sustain, no poke, worse mana costs and no ability to push you in. I can't imagine Jarvan succeeding against a comparably skilled Ryze.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Ryze is one of the easiest champions I've ever played. Hover over a guy, faceroll your keyboard, collect solo kill, repeat.
Irelia is not a mechanically difficult champion. She's very strange, and requires some getting used to, but like Elise, she's not that challenging to actually play. She's got a self buff, two point and click nukes, and a ridiculously easy to hit skillshot. A Diamond and a Bronze who've played Irelia and equal number of times will likely perform identically, relative to their division.
Incidentally, Jax vs. Irelia is very much a skill matchup - before Jax's nerfs, it very slightly favored Jax. Now, I imagine that it's even, or potentially in Irelia's favor. It's actually one of the most amusing matchups to watch and play, because neither of them want to use Counterstrike or Hiten Style respectively, so most of the time you're both trying furiously to bait the other guy into using their ability and then reengaging when it wears off.
Also, I'm confused by your insistence that Ryze and Irelia rely on items to carry - that's a good reason that they're not played much *competitively.* In solo queue, you're most likely not going to get lane swapped upon or heavily denied - it's very much standard for you to be given your own solo lane to farm in, and you can even take teleport if you expect to be harassed. It's hardly the liability is in competitive play.
her?
ReplyDeleteHis burst damage makes you wonder why zed even exists lol.
ReplyDeleteIMO i think Xerath should be at least tier 1. He's being picked a lot in the LCS lately and Bjergsen has also owned with Xerath multiple times in his stream. Either way, Xerath's range, wave clear, and insane late game dmg makes him really strong
ReplyDeleteMid lane he is incredibally vi-able he is like S-3 riven IMO
ReplyDeletefixxed
ReplyDeleteWhy is wukong god tier top ?
ReplyDeleteAatrox should be moved up after the BT buff. Try it, play him you'll see.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I'm loving the new Rengar to death as a jungler, I think tier 1 is very appropriate. Sure, his ult is brutal, but his first clear is pretty awful and he really can't scrap with the best junglers. I think he's probably the fourth or fifth best jungler right now, but I think that he has too many abusable weaknesses to be a true god.
ReplyDeleteI can't tell if I'm just communicating very poorly, or if you're being deliberately obtuse.
ReplyDeleteA) Most players are in bronze~gold.
B) This list, however, takes data from ALL players.
you drunk bro
ReplyDeleteI would still like to see jungle Nunu moved up, largely because of the
ReplyDelete"Attack Speed Changes: With the change in attack speed items and blood thirster nerfs, no doubt you've noticed by now that certain champions that benefit such as Tristana and Kog'maw are now at the top of their game. Well Nunu has a 45% Attack Speed buff for his ADC."
He's also got a 25% Attack Speed slow for the enemy's Trist/Kog'Maw.
Works for nearly every team comp, so his team fight potential is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteMoreso than that, I feel that his versatility is his greatest draw. He's a strong laner that functions in pick comps, siege comps, teamfight comps - pretty much every currently significant archetype has a place for him, making him a safe pick, even in the depths of "I can only play one champion" 5.
ReplyDeleteI upvote the comment so it will be seen. I don't want it to be lost in all the comments never to be seen.
ReplyDeleteI have read the descriptions/explinations, by the way. I just don't agree with them.
I'm going to list a few points to reply with:
As I said, Fiora I can deal with. Her burst makes her lack of CC not that bad in retrospect.
Renekton I said was debatable. I think I just want him to be a god teir, but I think I am just really good because I have played him for so long. :p
As for Irelia, the skill cap is higher, but I don't think skill should be inductive of what is a god tier.
Ryze I think can counter a LOT of the more popular top laners then get countered.
Thanks for the response! You gave good points.
- Vincent
You took the words out of my mouth, great response. :D
ReplyDeleteWhy is everyone getting on the Gragas hype train? I've faced him roughly 6 or 7 times in the top lane with a number of different champions (Fiora, Rumble, Lulu, Malphite and Trundle) and never really had much trouble with him. I can understand him having the explosive cask and the disengage but from what I've seen he's never really been that overwhelming to deal with.
ReplyDelete(I am a Silver/Gold player so it may just be that I haven't seen any good ones)
I do love him but like I said he's overhyped and it pains me to see that people would consider him God Tier.
ReplyDeletei think malphite can reach god tier top,his winrate is pretty high,has got attack speed reduction for those tristana and kogmaw,has got one of the best initiator in the game and his damage is pretty solid.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think about malphite in god tier
personally im not on the jungle warwick hype train, and although i believe it to be very effective, in my opinion strong teamfight oriented jungles like wukong, fiddlestick, jarvan an amumu are the strongest picks for solo queue. im also undecided on the lucian top god position in the adc bracket, as although ive seen many players have great success with him with some minor itemisation and rune changes (cdr the new op) i believe many low elo players dont have the game knowledge to utilise his resettable dash to compensate for the reduced range. i have seen many dashing into the middle of the enemy front line and dying instantly, confused as to how such a high mobility champion could possibly be caught out like that :p as for mid wukong, i have tried it out recently with a mixed results, but im interested more in expanding my champion pool and would appreciate it if you could share a builld :)
ReplyDeletei appreciate your opinion, but i think you let too much of your own bias shine through in justification for champion positions. For instance, you state that an escape is 'VITAL' yet irelia and ryze dont have one, although with a great outplay mechanic irelia's q could be seen as an escape. Renekton in my opinion is still a laning phase god, with one e-aa-w-aa-q-e combo enough to take 2/3 of an oponents health off. However, with this being low elo solo queue and meta shifting more towards late game oriented team comps, his utility and damage just scale off too much for him to be a true god tier top. On the other hand, whilst the same can be said for gragas, i do agree that the plethora of cc in his kit and percentage health make him, like you said, the better version of the croc but ap. The final quarrel i have with what you said is irelia being a monster late game. Irelia falls off late game, with her powerspike being after her two core damage items, after which she trails off. She's like jax in a way with very similar kit mechanics, but slightly better at teamfights but worse at splitpushing, Irelia is too mana and ability reliant as well which makes her skill cap automatically higher, increasing the difficulty for low elo players also.
ReplyDeletehowever , a zyra can do dmg as a ap mid , her dmg is insane , if you master the zyra for sp , you will know to peel for adc and kill the enemy , if you are a thresh or leona , what you can do if you are a newbie ???
ReplyDeleteWhy is zyra god tier support ??
ReplyDeleteface problem , no wonder :)
ReplyDeleteWhy is Zed mid only viable ?
ReplyDeleteHigh skill level and hard countered by things like zhonyas.
ReplyDeleteI believe he is :P
ReplyDeleteWell, as someone in Platinum IV, I'd disagree. Meta changes from Gold IV/Gold III and up. What's viable in Bronze V - Silver I/at times Gold V isn't the same as the 5% of players from G4 to G1.
ReplyDeleteMoving Alistar down was really unfair, champs should be placed depending on what they're capable of, not what players decide to do with them.
ReplyDeleteCan someone explain to me why Zyra is god tier support? She's basically Nami with more damage and less CC.
ReplyDeleteWhy is wukong got tier top ?
ReplyDeleteThing for ryze, as said, he is heavy reliant on items. If Jarvan starts maybe a flask, he'll outsustain and his damage is strong enough to take Ryze out early, and when Ryze falls behind, its hard to come back until mid game.
ReplyDeleteZyra's damage is only insane as much as her items allow. Support zyra doesn't get enough farm to sustain that damage.
ReplyDeleteIf you master Zyra, woohoo. Same thing for Thresh and Leona.
If you're a noob, you're not going to do better with Zyra then Thresh, and ESPECIALLY Leona, which I feel is a really easy champion to learn.
The problem with Zyra is micromanagement, which actually would be harder to learn. You have to manage your seeds, align your E (which is even a skillshot), and you can't afford to play passively or you won't do well.
Leona CAN.
How many times are you going to spam this comment?
ReplyDeleteCtrl-C Ctrl-V previous conversation:
"Because he has GREAT burst damage, can snowball very easily, has a gamechanging ult that not only has a multi-person knockup but can provide some good damage in teamfights, he has amazing juke potential (Goldies love him, and so do I), and he has overall great damage output compared to Jax and Renekton.
lol
ReplyDeleteWhere in this tier list does it say that he takes data from all players as well?
ReplyDeleteIt's like I'm arguing with a brick wall. No matter how much I try to say that this tier list is for Bronze~Gold like MANY OTHER TIER LISTS, the wall responds by pointing irrelevant mistakes in my comments.
If the majority of Bronze and Silver can't play him right, than a champion can't go to its potential.
ReplyDeleteIf he didn't have no sustain whatsoever, mana problems early game, huge team reliance, and hard countered by popular top laners, I would agree with you.
ReplyDeleteHe was already almost Tier 3 with the meta, the BT buff hasn't helped his lackluster plays or stats.
ReplyDelete4th time you've repeated this comment and it upvoted your own comment.
ReplyDelete"Because he has GREAT burst damage, can snowball very easily, has a gamechanging ult that not only has a multi-person knockup but can provide some good damage in teamfights, he has amazing juke potential (Goldies love him, and so do I), and he has overall great damage output compared to Jax and Renekton."
And he's annoyingly tanky.
ReplyDeleteXerath is my favorite. I even play him top.
ReplyDeleteReally, she's like Nami with more damage and no healing. They're both about equal in terms of cc.
ReplyDeleteBut how often are you going to have the money to get a BT on Aatrox? BotRK is a must-have item for him, and he needs to be a bit tanky.
ReplyDeleteWukong is just one of those champions that, even if he's nerfed, his mechanics are good enough to keep him in tier 1 at least.
ReplyDeleteI play him quite often and have a positive win rate with him but what's being said is entirely true. I normally don't pick him unless I'm against leona, braum, or blitz. He provides respectable sustain and his ability to just headbutt a threat out of a fight makes him strong but overall his skill level is quite high.
ReplyDeleteI haven't played against him a lot but he is basically a ziggs but without the escape.
ReplyDeleteThe mana problems and lack of sustain (including life steal builds being useless) hurt him the most IMO.
ReplyDeleteI think ADC and Support-wise, you're fine. I don't think Trynd is a top-lane God, or Wukong/WW. I don't agree with most of your Mid or Jungle picks either.
ReplyDeleteIMO:
Top: Irelia, Fiora, Rengar, Lee Sin
Mid: Ziggs, Fizz, Kassadin, maybe Talon
Jungle: Amumu, Evelyn, Maokai, J4, Skarner
Rammus, WW, and Fiddle Jungle are only successful due to their extreme ease to pick up and play. I keep seeing Wukong everywhere and I think it's over-rated. His Q was nerfed a long time ago and W jukes only get you so far. As for Mid Lane, Zyra is too immobile and squishy. As far Ahri, there are better assassins who don't rely completely on their charm.
Am I the only one wondering why it is that Elise is only tier 2?
ReplyDeleteTheres a reason i put question marks on some of them. Because I didn't know if they deserved it, which is why I wanted to see if other people thought that. I personally wasn't sure if they deserved it, and it looks like you didn't agree with all of it. And yes I thought i was over-rating wukong, which was why i put question marks on top and jungle wukong. Only role I'm sure wukong is god tier in is mid, because he is much better than fizz and talon. Agree on ireliia being god tier, but after playing fiora a few times, I feel her win rate doesn't justify her absurd positioning because she doesn't do enough damage (As an example wukong does much more damage) to carry teamfight even if ahead and lacks almost every other fundamental to make her incredibly hard to shut down. Also explain rengar and lee sin, because idk about such a high position. And do you think mao and skarner are still god tier, because i think they fell off a bit. Agree with evelynn, but imo fiddlesticks is one of the best junglers in the game, just my experience playing him, or with or against him. Btw ziggs win rate fell a lot, do you think hes still god tier?
ReplyDeleteElise is fine in Tier 2.
ReplyDeleteThere are many problems that Elise has that keeps her from being better than Tier 2. Elise has no real ultimate, which means he doesn't spike at level 6 like other junglers do. She's very squishy and doesn't have a built-in tankiness like other popular junglers (read: unlike Jarvan IV or VI). She has EXTREMELY low poke damage after mid game, mediocre clear speed until mid/late game, mana hungry early on (blue's taken? You're screwed), Elise requires Gold or higher skill to pull of initiates, combos, and be able to switch from ranged/melee. Did I mention that her spider form forces you to fight, and if you play passively in ranged form you suffer from long CDs? Also, again, she falls off late game.
I was undecided, I thought seeing lucian performing better was luck, until I saw an incredible rise in win rate, I think him being a god is unquestionable atm, and I personally feel hes the best. As for mid wukong, you go ad quints and marks, armour seals, and mr glyphs, and for masteries go 21/9. My build is personally hydra>lw>bc(order can be changed around), but this other platinum wuokng main told me you should get trinity force second after hydra, so experiment and see what your core build should be. For boots, you can choose between mobis(if you have 800 gold and desperately need boots), swifties, tabis, mercs, or ionians(never tried ionians but other main told me this is best). If you want an example of a full build you could go hydra/lw/bc/triforce/ga/mobis, but thats just an example, and sometimes its better to take another defensive item(two defensive items is the most i go, wukong doesn't even need to be tanky at all). I'm guessing by mixed results you mean some games were an incredible stomp and some didn't go so well. In my experience, every game you play properly will be the incredible stomp. To play wukong you got to abuse his extremely strong early game and play aggressive like you're fizz, and at level 2 you have insane kill potential as your e-aa-q combo easily does half those squishies health. Passed level 2 you trade and disengage with decoy and try to bait skill shots and outtrade them. At level 6 your kill potential is incredible again, and so is you're roaming, remember to ward in the laning phase for complete control over the mid laner. In teamfight your job is to invis in and oneshot the squishies and then knockup and do as much damage to everyone on the team. Once you master playing aggresive you should beat just about every meta mid laner in the game(you can get counter picked by unorthodox mids such as annie, fiddle, riven, pantheon, mord, swain etc). The mid laners i have most trouble with are kayle and ryze but those imo are still slightly in wukong's favor. If you are wondering why pick wukong over other aggro mid laners like fizz and talon, to make it simple he has a better laning phase, better ganks, higher burst damage, better assassin, and has much more aoe damage and aoe cc.
ReplyDeleteBy your logic, nunu support should be moved up lol. I think nunu jung should be moved up when they vu summoners rift, because he should get more buffs from the monsters because they are all different and not just golems, wraiths, and lizards.
ReplyDeleteSimply put his burst is insane. As a someone who mains top wukong, idk if its god tier as really he is much better mid where he actually has a lot more favourable matchups and carry potential. I don't think he is a better top laner than lulu, irelia, and tryndamere. High tier 1 is where i would put him.
ReplyDeletethanks for replies
ReplyDeleteZeed s so low becouse of his high skill cap? Becuz he's pretty good right now.
ReplyDeleteI would agree with this. Move Alistar down on the FOTM tier list, but there's absolutely no reason to drop his rating here. I mean, he was only improved.
ReplyDeleteI think he's at the bottom of Tier 2 right now, probably.
No he isn't. He has the most counterplay out of any assassin in the game, he is horrible in teamfights, can't play another role. What's thing good about him is that he is safe, has good waveclear, and is a good splitpushing duelist. But if anyone on the enemy team can duel you and stop your split, zed becomes a pretty bad champ imo(I am biased against zed).
ReplyDeleteThat's not bias against Zed. That's a perfectly reasonable explanation.
ReplyDeleteTo add, some indirect item nerfs got him as well, specifically botrk and merc. Botrk, his main item, now has an active that's much weaker, and merc was buffed, which was an item that COMPLETELY countered Zed's ult.
This does not help that he's actually REALLY reliant on his energy and shadows. Seriously, micromanagement, quick reaction times, and fast reflexes are SO dependent to a huge fault.
Also, despite being an AD mid (which are getting better nowadays), it's not helped that he's so weak to harass if just his W is on CD. JUST HIS W
And since as a Zed, you never max the thing first, even if you did max it it would still have a 14 ****in long CD.
That's too much... just too much.
Ziggs: I think he kit is still strong. Win rate is probably falling due to the hitbox decrease, which frankly was needed. He's still incredibly strong.
ReplyDeleteFizz: is stupid strong, as always. He'll see a ban-rate increase soon.
Rengar: I place him high up as he's a no-cost top with high stats and good sustain. Any Rengar that knows how to use bushes should do well in lane. He does, however, suffer from poor waveclear.
Lee Sin (Top): Built-in sustain, escape, poke, energy-based, and wave-clear
Fiora: I confess I don't see much, but suffocates her winning lane match-ups. It's really a pain if your top-laner picks a safe champ for her to play against in champ select.
Talon: is under-rated in even Teir 1. He is one of the few Assassin's remaining with a silence (and it isn't a skillshot like Ahri's E, a supress). He's got great wave-clear, and once he decides to go in, it's nearly impossible to out-play him without a teammate to CC him.
Mao and Skarner haven't changed this patch (Skarner got a damage reduction in 4.11), but I think they hype for them has disappeared. I'll probably get flame for neglecting Ryze God top, but I think he's over-rated. Anyone with an all-in early can pummel him.
Rammus moved down? He has the 2nd higher winrate in the game, goes well with new sotag and ridiculously easy to play. Meanwhile Lee is a lot harder to play and has the 11th worst winrate in the game (46.11%). Eve could be higher, I'm with you there.
ReplyDeleteDo you think botrk is still the best rush. Or should zed players start building ravenous hydra?
ReplyDeleteAll depends on how skilled you are.
ReplyDeleteIf you're really skilled, and/or you main Zed, you should still get Botrk, as those people can use it to the best extent.
If not, and you either play passively or do not main Zed in the slightest, Hydra is the safer pick.
Personally, however, even though I've played Zed a lot since he was released, I've BEEN going with Hydra, as it has more sustain and I don't have as much trouble with harass, and late game is a nice spike.
Nunu support is pants. I don't care where he is.
ReplyDeleteUmmmm...
ReplyDeletehttp://i.imgur.com/3dmQDNZ.jpg
Here?
I said that high damage can make up for a lack of CC. Such as Fiora, Ryze, and Irelia.
ReplyDeleteHe does have attack speed slows and buffs which make him better for the team but his range is pretty small so getting in range for an e can be a challenge if there is a trist, cait on the enemy team. I can see your point though due to his counter-jungling potential as the tanky-support junglers are being played again.
ReplyDeleteExhaust, QSS, and Zhonya's are all good reasons, too.
ReplyDeleteWith the AD Carry changes, Wukong has become even more useful than before. With his absurd damage ratios and armor penetration, he can delete the AD Carry off the map by simply stealthing to the back line and using a full combo.
ReplyDeleteHe's a really strong laner with versatile build paths and a lot of utility. You could build him as a tanky bruiser, a zone control mage, or (my favorite) the fattest splitpushing assassin ever. He also offers really safe waveclear, pick potential and disengage no matter how he builds.
ReplyDeleteI agree. To quote someone else:
ReplyDelete"Imagine Zyra, but she can heal and spead up her team mates and get her knockup ult from farther away. What you've just imagined is Nami. Aaaand that's why Zyra is lower tier right now."
- cyraknoss, Reddit. "Guide to Carrying Support"
Re: Ryze - which champions are you thinking of? Generally speaking, champs that can all in early and champs that don't get poked really hard by Ryze don't overlap that much (Renekton's a good example). If Ryze is running HPen/MS runes, he can play a bit like Orianna and just walk into the other guy with autos whenever he tries to CS, and mostly likely get the level 2 jump. Only works against melees, of course, but I can't think of many ranged all in top laners.
ReplyDeleteWukong, Irelia, Pantheon, Fiora, and Xin Zhao all destroy Ryze in an early all-in.
ReplyDeleteIf we're talking mid lane, excluding any mage with higher range (most), Talon, Akali, and even Fizz. Yes, Fizz. Players claim Ryze counters Fizz - I have yet to be in a game with such a Ryze.
As for the counter-picks Ryze is supposed to be strong against, they have either been nerfed out of popularity long ago - Riven, Trynd - or have recently fallen out of popularity anyway - Renekton, Jax, Shyvanna, Nasus. If anything, he has repeatedly been indirectly nerfed when his strong lane match-ups are nerfed out of popularity.
EDIT: I say Akali despite the fact that she won't all-in until 6
You know how sad you sound when you say that you dont want him nerfed? Dude, meta changes, deal with it
ReplyDeleteYeah I would agree with you and the other people here, but I think he'd be at the lower end because he can be easily shut down due to no escapes in his kit, and he is also a bit of a high skill cap champ. He has the damage and versatility at the price of vulnerability and difficulty
ReplyDeleteHow do I build gragas top or jungle?
ReplyDeleteEven accounting for his pure strength and him being played at the highest skill level; he really isn't someone you pick first as a sup and is more of a counter pick or a situational pick. The lcs isn't the best example but aphromoo picks alistar into Leona. Against blitz, leona, braum, and anyone like trynd, yi, or for a to headbutt them out of fights. Heck you could even pick him into Morgana to knock her away when she ults He provides decent sustain, hard cc (knock ups aren't affected by tenacity fyi), a solid tank, and disengage. However his low range and high skil level means you need your ADC and team to know how alistar works and most importantly you need to know how he works and how he should be played.
ReplyDeleteTL;DR His high skill level and low range lands him at the top of tier 3 or maybe possibly the bottom of tier 2.
I'm personally a fan of Rock's build on top Gragas - RoA, Lich Bane, Zhonya's and Void Staff. You can also build him as a bruiser with RoA, Iceborn Gauntlet, Spirit Visage and the like, but I don't really like how hard that build falls off.
ReplyDeleteAlternatively, you can always just build him as an AP mid (Athene's/Morello, Deathcap, Void Staff).
I don't play gragas but so far rushing roa seems to be the best option then just build tanky or AP depending on what your team needs. Basically build him similar to nidalee. Don't play gragas so sorry if my comment doesn't help.
ReplyDeletethoughts on fiddlesticks top. Early game he can shlt on any melee that doesn't have hard cc(no exceptions).
ReplyDeleteactually . i ask you , zyra or thresh / leona more pain ?? do you use your brain ? zyra without item also can do insane damage with her plant
ReplyDeleteWhat significant melees with no cc are played in top lane? I can't really think of any that are viable or popular.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, Fiddles top sounds pretty campable. His crow thingy pushes the lane whenever he uses it, and he's forced to power through minions if he wants to use his sustain to its fullest. I think I'd prefer Gragas or Lulu in most situations.
I just said there are no melees without cc that can beat him, but as you can see in this video, he could ignore tower, outtrade renek, AND renek has a stun. Yes it sounds pretty campable so i guess that is one of his weaknesses. But I don't think his drain pushes waves if used to harrass. To name champions fiddle would destroy: Ryze, Fiora(Can't imagine how onesided this matchup is xD), wukong, malphite, Dr mundo, shyv, vlad. Anyways as effective or ineffective the pick is you can't deny that faker play was insane.
ReplyDeleteThat was a 9 kill Majai's Fiddlesticks vs. a 1 item Renekton who was 1/5. It doesn't seem fair to take that as an indication of your typical Fiddles Renekton matchup.
ReplyDeleteNot certain I would call Fiora, Malph or Vlad significant. Having a good matchup against Mundo is nice, but picking AP top into Mundo is very dangerous unless you've got an AD mid - if he's allowed to just rush a Spirit Visage, he essentially hits late game at 3000 gold.
Yea, I wonder how he got 9 kills. But then again that was faker. Just was suggesting the possibilty of a pick. Anyways, I watch that 5 times and am still amazed everytime I see that play. Idk if it's viable yet so I'll have to try and see next time I'm top lane in ranked
ReplyDeleteYeah, Faker is pretty good at this League of Legends thing.
ReplyDeleteLemme know how your testing goes. Always fun to see new picks.
Currently trist is the strongest accross all tiers of ranked (on euw anyway it might be slightly different on NA). Corki who i while ago was my best adc (Quinn, varus and graves have since taken that role) is to short range compared to other adcs and is relatively easy to poke out of a lane or engagement. He's is by no means the worsed adc but hes not even close the top of the list.
ReplyDeleteyour drunk if u think lee is better than rammus
ReplyDeleteif that was the case urgot top would be tier 3/2 as his potental against tanks is really strong however he as the lowest pick and win rates in the game as most people dont know what the hell to do with him. the same can be said with alistar he has the potental to snow ball a team through good play but is the opposit is happening he really had to get moved down.
ReplyDeleteOnce people stop diving with him is win rate will go up and he may get moved up again.
What do u think about new zed build ? i mean Botrk yoummus lw ie
ReplyDeleteHer w's bonus damage is insane late game until eventually shes can be doing with a crit 298% of her ad
ReplyDeleteThere's a guy who reached challenger playing only fiddle top, search in solorenektononly channel renekton vs fiddlesticks. He gets destroyed by renekton, but that guy is awesome with fiddle top.
ReplyDeletenami has one more form of cc in terms of her e
ReplyDeleteim saying that none of them have an escape :/....
ReplyDeleteGalio's win rate has gone up to god tier levels. Shall we see him moving up a notch or 2?
ReplyDeletei agree with you 100%, i already had this argument before and i said the exact same things. Elise is insanely strong early game which results in early ganks and the ability to snowball the game from there. Also her clear time is so good imo because of the insane damage all her abilities combined do. Personally i think shes just behind lee sin as well
ReplyDeleteGod tier support
ReplyDeleteGallio really good support he has a slow, good poke, a speed boost, an armor and mr shield, a taunt, and can get your adc fed early game and can deny the other adc cs with q spams. Once you back once get a chalice and upgrade your coin mana isn't a problem and you just keep the enemies out of lane. With his kit he can disengage well when the enemy jungler ganks. Why wouldn't galio support be higher than tier 4.
ReplyDeleteI say this with curiosity and not malice: do you have any views on the other champs I've mentioned? Considering he's the main champ of debate in my personal listing, it seems the other champs have reasonable explanations?
ReplyDeleteIf you love Ryze so much, by all means keep promoting him. I mean that as respectfully as possible. I'll continue to voice my own anti-Ryze views. At a teetering 49/50% win rate, I still need more convincing that he's not just at the lower end of balanced (T2) and out-playable champs - though rate is both for mid and top picks.
TL;DR Othesemo thinks Ryze is a strong pick, Foen7 doesn't
He should be higher than tier 4, but that being said, I see him as being on a similar level to Xerath or Vel'Koz support in tier 2, since he can't compare to the top supports, Thresh, Nami, Braum, Morgana, Leona, Blitz, and so on.
ReplyDeleteA much needed conversation! But to repost myself:
ReplyDelete"Elise is one of the few junglers who build SotAG who isn't a) directly buffed [in 4.11] like Naut, Maokai, b) inherently strong like Amumu, or c) a great niche pick like Sej or Rammus.
She doesn't benefit that well from SotAG since Elise rushes Frozen Heart (no health item) or Haunting Guise (which only gives 50 additional HP with SotAG buff)."
Except Xerath has a faster interrupt (think Zigg's W onto Kat ulti vs. Xerath E) and can poke through minions with his q. To accomplish the latter for Ziggs requires amazing bouncing skills and don't push the wave (good in laning scenarios, but not in waveclear scenarios).
ReplyDeleteIn a teamfight with 40% CDR, Xerath gets to spam Q and W to Zigg's Q; higher damage output goes to Xerath with utility going to Ziggs.
Let's not forget Zigg's WR has fallen as people are struggling to readjust to the new hitbox on Zigg's Q.
Zyra's e is a lot easier to hit than nami's q
ReplyDelete