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SEASON 4 - PATCH 4.8 SOLO QUEUE TIER LIST
SEASON 4 UPDATE
SEASON 4 UPDATE
This List has been updated, and new versions are available via this link
Hi everyone, thanks for being patient while waiting for the 4.8 update to run through. I've been off gallivanting at the magical world of Harry Potter chugging butterbeers and swinging play wands, but I'm finally back on the fields of justice with a brand new updated list for 4.8!
Check out the goods below:
Sirius Black's and the Elder Wand
Patch 4.8 Summary
Updates:Buffs: Blitzcrank, Cho'gath, Kha'Zix, MalzaharNerfs: Pantheon, Soraka
- Added Vek'Koz support
- Added some more caveats
- 5/31: Rengar moved up
- Tentative Patch 4.9 proposed changes posted
Use CTRL + F to Search For Champions
God Tier [Exceptionally Strong Choices]:
Mid-Lane Gods: Kayle, Ziggs, Kassadin, Nidalee
Jungle Gods: Amumu, Warwick, Wukong, Kha'Zix, Xin Zhao, Vi,
AD Gods: Jinx, Draven, Miss Fortune, Lucian
Top Lane Gods: Jax, Fiora,
Support Gods: Braum, Morgana, Zyra, Leona
Tier 1 [Strong/Preferred Choices]:
Mid-Lane: Katarina, Orianna, Zyra, Talon, Swain, Malzahar, Karma, Heimerdinger, Anivia, Yasuo, Lux, Morgana, Lulu (AP), Galio, Zed, Leblanc, Ahri, Brand, Syndra, Pantheon, Diana, Fizz, Wukong, Kha'Zix
Jungle: Nocturne, Jarvan IV, Fiddlesticks, Rammus, Elise, Jax, Evelynn, Volibear, Shaco, Udyr, Lee Sin, Pantheon, Rengar, Aatrox, Sejuani, Hecarim, Kayle
AD Carry: Twitch, Caitlyn, Graves, Ezreal, Varus, Tristana, Sivir
Top Lane: Trundle, Kayle, Renekton, Nasus, Ryze, Wukong, Rengar, Irelia, Tryndamere, Shyvana, Singed, Warwick, Heimerdinger, Yasuo, Pantheon, Darius, Malphite, Soraka, Teemo, Olaf, Aatrox, Yorick, Kennen, Elise, Lee Sin, Udyr, Volibear, Karma, Nidalee
Support: Thresh, Sona, Karma, Nami, Lulu, Taric, Janna, Blitzcrank
Tier 2 [Viable/Balanced Choices]:
Mid-Lane: Twisted Fate, Viktor, Cassiopeia, Akali, Soraka, Fiora, Annie, Kennen, Mordekaiser, Xerath, Vladimir, Vel'Koz, Teemo, Elise, Lissandra, Sion, Ryze, Jayce,
Jungle: Master Yi, Skarner, Tryndamere, Nautilus, Olaf, Zac, Dr. Mundo, Maokai, Nasus, Shyvana, Leona, Trundle, Malphite, Gragas, Diana, Zed
AD Carry: Ashe, Corki, Kog'Maw, Vayne, Quinn
Top Lane: Rumble, Riven, Cho'gath, Jarvan IV, Zac, Xin Zhao, Viktor, Shen, Poppy, Akali, Quinn, Vi, Swain, Kha'Zix, Vladimir, Garen, Dr. Mundo, Jayce, Lissandra, Zed
Support: Annie, Fiddlesticks, Alistar, Gragas, Vel'Koz
Tier 3 [Needs Higher Skill/Knowledge Than Usual]:
Mid-Lane: Gragas, Karthus, Veigar, Riven, Tristana, Cho'Gath, Fiddlesticks
Jungle: Nunu, Cho'Gath, Shen, Malzahar, Yasuo, Fiora, Riven, Poppy, Darius,
AD Carry: Twisted Fate, Kennen, Urgot
Top Lane: Master Yi, Gangplank, Mordekaiser, Sion, Vayne, Talon, Nunu, Galio
Support: Teemo, Nunu, Volibear, Lux, Soraka, Nautilus, Nidalee, Zilean, Syndra, Gangplank
Tier 4 [Low Effort to Benefit Ratios]:
Mid-Lane: Kog'maw, Zilean, Janna, Ezreal (AP),
Jungle: Gangplank, Blitzcrank, Alistar
AD Carry:
Top Lane: Urgot
Support: Kayle, Malphite, Orianna, Poppy, Elise, Galio, Shen, Maokai, Yorick, Lissandra, Ashe, Leblanc, Caitlyn
Instrucitons and Caveats:
- Champions in BOLD I will talk about shortly
- Champions UNDERLINED may be over/undervalued, but aren't/haven't played enough for me to make a better judgement.
- Within each tier the champions are strongest from left to right, but within a tier each champion's strength is relatively close. This is especially true for Tiers 2 and 3 where these champions are ALL highly playable and player dependent on how strong they are in-game.
- This tier list takes data from ALL players; however, since the majority of players fall in the first three tiers, the majority of data points will come from there.
- The creator of this list is diamond, so there may be some personal bias towards higher tier play on certain champions.
Champion Explanations
- Blitzcrank [Tier 1 Support] - His mana cost reductions from last patch helped his margin of error in lane by a decent amount. While his trading potential still counts on good positioning, I think his latest boost definitely keeps him in Tier 1.
- Braum [God Tier Support] - Braum is simply Leona 2.0 right now, and his engagement potential is immense. I think he'll need a cooldown nerf soon.
- Fiddlesticks [Tier 1 Jungle] - With the gradual balance of feral flare junglers, Fiddle is definitely coming back into the spotlight simply because of his ability to swing the flow of a game by himself with his high range, high damage ultimate and general disruptive abilities. While a lot of people think he's easily counterjungled, the fact of the matter is that 1v1 against a jungler without CC, he can easily solo just about anyone once he gets lvl 2 and blue buff.
- Kassadin [God Tier Mid] - Can't keep a broken champion down...
- Kayle [God Tier Mid] - I think it's no surprise that she's still in first place considering her insane damage and ability to melt teams once she gets a bit of a start. After mid-game, she's a constant pressure that's very difficult for most laners to deal with, even with sustain and high waveclear.
- Malzahar [Tier 1 Mid] - His latest mana buff allows him to hit his full combo easier early in the game when mana is an issue, and thus aids his snowball ability.
- Nidalee [God Tier Mid] - I see a lot of discussion on Nidalee, and while it's true that she suffers against chamipions with high waveclear like Malzahar, Kayle, and Ziggs, if you can farm efficiently under turret with Nidalee, her ability to poke and survive are immense. With a team of high waveclear champions and good CC, Nidalee can easily poke down enemy champions before they find the chance for a good engagement.
- Rammus [Tier 1 Jungle] - Despite the nerfs to feral flare, everyone still plays a lot of auto-attack heavy champions in the jungle, making them perfect prey for Rammus. His kit is still very unique in regards to the high CC and ganking speed, which means that once his match-ups become favorable, he'll become OP again.
- Soraka [Tier 1 Top/Tier 2 Mid/Tier 3 Support] - Huge nerfs to Soraka all around. However, what's interesting to note is that even though her win rate overall plummeted to rock bottom, her win rate with Athene's or Rylai's is still pretty stable. I think this indicates that right now Soraka players are playing too aggressive and still trying to get in-lane trading kills rather than farm. I've left her top lane at Tier 1 simply because of her favorable match-ups, but she may still move down further depending on her numbers.
- Vel'koz [Tier 2 Support] - Vel'Koz support isn't all that bad, but in the hands of most players, traditional supports will do better.
- Zyra [Tier 1 Mid] - Zyra's insanely strong right now and the only thing holding her back is her durability. Otherwise, I think she could be a top contender with her insane damage and trading potential.
- The purpose of this list is for discussion and to provide a starting point for hero selection.
Agree? Disagree? Comment below!
lee sin is too low IMO: Of course he is early game centered but he can easily demoralize any team by owning early an even so his utility late game can be good. No way udyr is better than lee sin
ReplyDeleteLee's good early, but his late game tends to waver if you can't close out fast enough. His skill cap's also a lot higher than Udyr, and even missing a single Q can end any potential of a successful gank. He's very fun and popular, but since his power is balanced for high level competitive play, most people won't be able to play him at the proper level.
ReplyDeleteI think it's kinda interesting that, as a whole, this tier list seems to place relatively low value on mobility. Fiora, Jinx, Xin Zhao, Amumu, and Kayle all either lack dashes altogether, or can only use them to initiate and not to escape.
ReplyDeleteAs a Jungle main, I kinda hope this tier list becomes more popular.
Vlad top should be much higher on the tier list, bordering bot of tier 2 is unacceptable. His mid to late game scaling is beyond strong in the meta and offsets his weak early game, and is a hyper carry off tank which is never a bad thing too. His main reason why he should be moved higher is as the meta in top shifts more champs are late game scaling champs that either lack a super hard gap closer and or sustain to push him out of lane.
ReplyDeleteThe ones that do generally counterpick him are getting power creeped by other top laner, champs such as wukong or irelia that can crush vlad are getting phased out by favorable matchups such as jax,shyvana,ryze, etc which allows him to hyper scale and be better in late game then the aforementioned champs.
While his win rate is still quite low, over the past month gaining about a .9~ win rate increase across all levels of play is showing his viability increase in the top lane at least, not to mention with the new cd scaling glyphs give him a very reliable way of hitting the 40% cdr that helps him become a monster that he is.
Would love to hear some feedback and counter arguments to this, otherwise very well done tier list, best since ive been here!
Any opinions on Ezreal?
ReplyDeleteFinally!!! Ha! I've been playing Zyra mid since her release. People used to say that Zyra mid isn't good, but they didn't realize that how high her damage could be. Especially when I get dfg for the first big item, people in that game would go like: Wow.
ReplyDeleteNo love for Poppy ;_;
ReplyDeleteRengar still tier 2? I see everybody banning him right now, he oneshots carries easy even if behind, maybe not god tier, but tier 1 at least imo.
ReplyDeleteSo you're happy that people start to see her potentional now? Enjoy games where Zyra gets pickad before you can pick, banned so you can't pick and nerfed to the ground to the level of being tier 3 :)
ReplyDeleteYeah, Rengar's a hot pick right now, I'm thinking about moving him up. His overall win rate is average but with any core item he's doing pretty damn well.
ReplyDeleteCan't Still Poppy without OP ._. "runs away"
ReplyDeleteWow! Kog still Tier-2! I think he is like a mega-scaling Dueling Varus 2.0
ReplyDeleteNice point~ though it won't effect my love for in any way. In fact, this means that I have more chance to wreck opponent's Zyra! (a weird hobby of mine lol
ReplyDeleteOpinions on Kha'zix? is he still op asf? havent played since preseason, and ive heard he's been getting hit with that nerf stick :p
ReplyDeleteStill great in the jungle, Okay in the top/mid.
ReplyDeleteyou should add udyr in god tier
ReplyDeleteTrick2g has shown that it is possible
Check out TheOddOne's Ezreal quotes. Pretty much sums up Ezreal in this meta.
ReplyDeleteRight now, he is pretty outclassed by Lucian, Jinx, Draven, or even Twitch.
Um...
ReplyDeleteJust because a pro played it doesn't mean anything.
Especially since pros have nothing do with solo queue...
I actually think he should be lower in Tier 2.
I tried Soraka top the other day. I just have to say… CSing is so hard with 9/21 masteries now. Starcall does pitiful damage, and using Infuse to execute a minion costs mana now.
ReplyDeleteHowever, she's still probably Tier 1. So much of her power lies in that MR shred, and going top lane and building tanky really enables you to go into the other team, apply the MR shred, and watch as your AP carry destroys them.
I have 12 problems with this tier list, but other than that this tier list is great.
ReplyDelete1. Soraka: I agree with your explanation, but I really don't think she's deserving of Tier1. Even being less aggressive I have problems.
2. Hecarim: Tier 1? More like Tier 4. He's gotten far, far worse in the new jungler meta of Kha'Zix, Rengar, Evelynn, Lee Sin, and Amumu.
3. Nocturne: HUGE drop in win rate, and he's very, very bad now. Same as Hecarim, problems with the new jungler meta.
4. Anivia: Tier 1 is pushing it. She's having problems against the ever-changing mid lane meta. Squishiness and mana problems are not good right now, and her early game is getting worse.
5. LeBlanc: She's still not God? I know we've been arguing this for weeks, but her ban rate hasn't gone down for very good reasons. She snowballs very, very well.
6. Rengar: He's a god. Most definitely. The rise in win rate, the rise in ban rate, the rise in doing well against popular junglers... He just does well naturally now.
7. Evelynn: Move to God and put down Warwick. She is a god among junglers, and ambushes well, especially when she ambushes lane with Twitch.
8. Yasuo: He still does well against popular mids! He does exceptional in teamfights, and late game he is just a monster. God please.
9. Lee Sin: For god's sake, he's always been a god. People are now more aware of him than ever, and he just does well in teamfights and ganking alike.
10. Twitch: Put him in God and put down Miss Fortune. Miss Fortune doesn't deserve to be up there, he does. And we've argued this last patch.
11. Blitzcrank: The unneeded buff has made him a monster (his ult, not his Q). Now he has a spammable ult, and is a bit less oom in lane.
12. Lulu: I would point to LCS, but that has nothing to do with this. It's just my opinion, and this is the only one that you should ignore, but I've been having so much problems against her with Braum and Leona.
I seriously think Tier 2, though, as the win rate drop was substantial.
ReplyDeleteOP. Really OP.
ReplyDeleteThe big nerfs aren't here quite yet (4.9 is really going to hit him), but for the time being, he has fantastic cleartime, fantastic sustain, reliable CC, huge burst when ganking top or mid, insane teamfight and late game potential, and lots of damage.
Play him before he's nerfed big!
Eh, I think LCS is making us think too much of him.
ReplyDeleteHe's still extremely squishy, and while the new slay of supports are helping him, he's a high risk (but high reward) champion, and he's not popular enough to give a decent opinion without relying on conjecture.
I disregard his win rate in Bronze and Silver because it's a VERY small popularity, but the Gold is hit and miss right now. We'll see if he gets any popular.
i wouldnt consider trick2g a pro... hes a streamer but he neither plays for a team or solely lives off of playing the game i dont agree with udyr god tier but he is at least tier 1 he has ridiculous clear times in jungle even with feral nerfs and his ganks and team fights are insane because if he positions correctly then 1 by 1 he can lock down and destroy an entire team
ReplyDeleteIf he positions correctly.
ReplyDeleteStop right there.
That's based on the player, which is a problem, as most Bronze/Silver players don't know how to position, effectively taking 2/3 of what this tier list is based on.
The problem with Udyr is that he is REALLY easy to kite.
And I mean, really easy.
Very, very popular champions like Lee Sin can run circles around him, and the same can be said for others like Vi.
Or Jarvan. Or Shyvana.
He also has a hard time ganking lanes with assassins, like Zed, LB, and Vayne, which can kite him and then ruin him.
Does Trick2g play him a lot? If so, that's someone who mains the champion, which is hard to rely on since he would do well with him the most.
But don't just judge off of 1 player.
Judge off the whole of Bronze, Silver, and Gold.
Looking at win rate, he's 49% throughout all divisions.
Not Tier 1 material.
Except Vlad has to reach Mid/Late game to become relevant. Levels 1-3, he's weak and vulnerable to anyone who can all in him - a long list including popular picks such as Lee Sin, Panthon, Rengar, and Yasuo, Unless you think Jax is going to run away from Vlad after Vlad qs once, I don't see how Vlad wins the early game. Even if Jax loses the all in between lvs 1-3, he outscales Vlad hard in skirmish and objective control, as well as lategame.
ReplyDeleteAs far as CD building goes, are you rushing WOTA into Spirit Visage for 40%? Because if so, you really don't get a power spike - you simply excel at sustain. Sustain doesn't save you from a 5-man focus in teamfights, doesn't give you armor or tenacity, and requires a fair amount of cs by the 20 minute mark. Top lane features a lot of bruisers, fighters, and tanks that can initate with tenacity and beefiness - Vlad isn't one of them.
The main reason he is Teir 2 is that he can't burst squishies down in 0.5 seconds, offers very low utility to the team, struggles to initiate, and offers poor objective control. There are so many top laners that can partially do the above, so why pick Vlad? You can make the argument that with Vlad, you can wreck lane - sure. And yes, much like Swain, Vlad can walk away from a Jungle Gank on him and emerge with a double kill. But Vlad will remain a selfish pick for personal fun, without contributing very much to a SoloQue Team.
Her win rate dropped because she actually takes a little skill now. You can't just Q randomly and have respectable CS—it has to be timed well.Also, when you're behind, you need better positioning in teamfights. That's it. Both of these are things a good Soraka can get over, and that's why she should stay where she is.
ReplyDeleteits entirely based on the player regardless of tier lists or how powerful a champion it is orianna is tier but i bet faker still fucks up alot of nidalees :L if you know how to play udyr correctly and take advantage of his passive and combine that with his stances primarily bear tiger and bear hes difficult to kite without using gap creators such as flash and heal (for move speed) which imo is a useful gank i main adc if udyr comes into my lane in turtle stance and switched to bear stance gains move speed and can stun me with say a jinx or a lucian with any support you like im gonna flash and after i flash im gonna 'fuck hes gonna be back within 5 minutes because now i have no flash and next time i make a mistake udyr will get me' so for 5 minutes i now have to play safe, all of the god tier jungs have gap closers that are instant udyr has a consistent gap closer with no cool down hes always going to be faster than you and if he forces summoners then imo hes a strong jung
ReplyDeleteI would disagree about Miss Fortune. As long as the opposing team doesn't have heavy dive or an assassin, she's a great pick. She is a lane bully with decent scaling. She has insane poke with Q, and wins every trade with EQW. Her ult is fantastic for so many things. She synergizes with every support. Why wouldn't she be god tier?
ReplyDeleteBut that's based on knowing everything about udyr.
ReplyDeleteThat would require skill!
Which Bronze and Silver can't provide.
Why would you flash? This is all based on conjecture, and yet his win rate is down.
Are we going to ignore that?
This is all based on an udyr being smarter than everybody else, which is a biased argument that I'm not going to go into.
As an Amumu Main, I can assure you Amumu can q over walls to Dragon, Buff, Golems, etc to escape. Many Lee Sins have cried at lv 2 regarding their inability to finish me at red buff.
ReplyDeleteMobility isn't everything. Sheer power - such as a Leona and ADC all in, or a Fiora tower-dive post-6 - can reward an aggressive playstyle. Mobility is just amazing for covering up positioning mistakes and for cleaning up kills, as well as ganking from the jungle.
That is all.
Syngerizes with every support? Whoah whoah whoah. I don't need to go into that, but that's not true.
ReplyDeleteUnlike other ADCs, she has no repositioning tool like Tumble or Rocket Jump, and while that wouldn't be a problem, she doesn't have the range to compensate. Like all ADCs, she's squishy, but she also lacks good CC, and is also vulnerable to CC and assassins, like you said, which are making a comeback in mid lane (Zed and LeBlanc, the 2 contenders).
And teams are slowly having more and more heavy dive, btw, so I would watch that.
win rate includes 4 other people on your team... so your argument is biased anyway you cant account for them and dont count out bronze and silver players they may not have thousands of hours of experience or a high pedegree behind them but theyre not retarded their going to react in a way thats appropriate to the situation these tier lists are based on stats and a huge followed stat is win rates and their entirely dependent on other people if you rely on a stat that you can only influence on average 20% of then okay but i dont think thats a good idea
ReplyDeleteWTF is with the win rate.
ReplyDeleteDude, it's the meta.
We've been arguing this for a LONG time. Win rate affects a LOT.
You may be new, but you can't just ignore win rates. They matter.
Win rates show how you are in the meta. How you synergize with the team. How well you do against other people. How much your skill relies on.
Don't ignore that.
That is bronze thinking.
Bronze and silver players, 2/3 of this tier list, don't have a lot of skill for champions like Lucian and Draven, and can only hold so much knowledge. They're not that good, and while there may be some good ones in there, the majority of it isn't.
Udyr is VERY reliant on skill.
You're acting like if I main Udyr, I will do well. THAT'S THE SAME FOR EVERYONE!
If I main LB, of course I'm going to do well. I know all the knowledge about that champion, and play her often.
If I main Udyr, the same applies.
But you can't just pick him up and play and expect to do well.
That's bronze thinking as well.
A squishy, immobile champ with a channelled ult is going to have a tough time when champs like Jax, Leona and Kassadin are some of the best in their role. She's a nice cross-lane counterpick to stuff like Mundo, and can probably get away with being so immobile if the other team doesn't have any hard engage, but she lacks the versatility are universal usability that 'god tier' implies to me.
ReplyDeleteNeat trick. Count me assured. That's absurdly situational compared to something like Leap Strike, Rift Walk, Safeguard or Distortion, though, and nowhere near as versatile as Rappel.
ReplyDeleteAnd yeah, I agree. Mobility is (just) amazing for positioning, juking, securing kills and disengaging. So, color me surprised that Xin Zhao is ranked higher than Elise or Lee Sin.
2. Hecarim, 3. Nocturne, 4. Anivia, 6. Rengar, 8. Yasuo, 9. Lee Sin, 10. Twitch: I support these all, and second them.
ReplyDelete1. Soraka, 7. Evelynn, 12. Lulu: I lack an educated opinion for.
I don't think Blitz is a monster. In lane, his mana costs are still high, his skills have fairly long cool downs, and is weaker than his Leona/Braum/Thresh tanky counterparts. He lacks the flexible, all-in aggresiveness of Leona, the utility of Thresh, and... well, the godly Braum. Overall, I think he is too highly dependent on CD items - Frozen Heart, Boots of Lucidity, Gold Item - and landing his q (but if he lands a q with his team around, its an instant delete that's funnier than a Nidalee spear).
Le Blanc (and Lee Sin) require a high skill level blah blah blah. Honestly, I view mastery of those champs as mastery of 75% of the other champs in the game - if you can pull of LB, you probably are going to dance circles around the rest of us mortals anyway and climb with your other champions. I think both LB and Lee are still worthy of Teir 3 Needs Higher Skill/Knowledge than Usual... but if you can pull them off, they are God God Teir with high outplay potential (feel free to add that teir, SSJ, no citation required!).
How is that situational? I would do that a lot.
ReplyDeleteAnd I disagree with Xin Zhao being higher than Lee Sin, which is what we're arguing below and above, if you read the other comments.
Xin Zhao shouldn't be God. While awareness has brought him back, I personally want him Tier 1. He's not as good as Lee Sin or Evelynn.
I don't think Lee needs as much skill as LB does. I actually do rather well, and I have not so good reaction times. I'm only Gold 3 after all. But that's where I apply to this tier list.
ReplyDeleteI don't main Lee, and I don't play him as much as I play Kha'Zix or Rengar, but I have problems against him.
With the right person he is a God, with the wrong person he's ok. But that tradeoff is big.
I just think he's more God than he is Tier 1. His ganking and teamfight potential are just really really good.
Go ahead and ignore my LB though, that's a bit biased as she's my 2nd main in mid, right behind Kassadin.
As for Blitz, I agree with your explanation, but I was more focusing on his late game. His ult just got a lot more spammable with that ult, which means a lot more problems.
Fair enough.
ReplyDeleteThe point I'm trying to make overall though is that other things go into consideration of rank other than mobility. CC, AOE or Single Target Damage, Snowball Potential, Ease to Master, and Utility, to name a few. For example (to use yours above), Xin Zhao provides a high amount of CC and Single Target Damage. Compared to Lee Sin, Xin Zhao is far, far easier to master and has a comparatively high snowball potential.
Because in some situations, you'll be fighting at dragon, or at baron, or in an empty lane, or in one base of the other. Or, you'll be fighting next to a camp that somebody took just before the fight began. Or, the camp is just as inhospitable as wherever you are presently (maybe there's a Garen in the brush).
ReplyDeleteThus, situational.
That's not really what I meant by situational.I mean it's not rare. It can happen often.
ReplyDeleteIt's still very useful.
Oh, definitely. Just not as useful as the skills I mentioned earlier.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's fair. I think that most of my issues with this tier list stem from the fact that I personally value mobility and utility very highly. To me, being able to force unfair fights is much more useful than being able to brute force your way through even ones.
ReplyDeleteI feel like riven is still a great top lane choice but she's in tier 2. She snowballs pretty hard after a kill or two and can really help carry a team do you just feel that the other top laners are safer picks or that a lot of top laners counter her?
ReplyDeleteI actually like where she is currently. At the top of Tier 2, but still not yet Tier 1.
ReplyDeleteWhile she snowballs well, she's actually more balanced than people believe. She has no sustain whatsoever, easily shut down by hard CC (yay Jax), she's difficult to play (considering this tier list was made for Bronze through Gold, Bronze and Silver have a hard time playing her with insufficient skill required), her win rate is only 49% throughout all divisions which shows skill required and her matchups in lane, and she's also very predictable mobility wise.
Back to snowballing, while if ahead she can absolutely destroy, if she starts falling behind she gets almost useless, no thanks to her mediocre scaling. She can't afford to build defensively because then she'll have no damage and can't do her job as a bruiser.
She does have a lot of damage though, but Tier 2 is where she should be.
Many god tier champs have to reach late to become relevant, your all in lists are either skillshot reliant or by playing poor in bush or in panths case go cloth 5 and outsustain his mana pool, vlad wins early game vs jax as his leap strike is a long enough animation for vlad to pool and only take the health cost from his pool, since jax has horrid early game sticking power for him to be an issue early, and vlad most definately outscales jax, not an i complete 1v1 scenario, but beter seige,defend and teamfight pressence he does.
ReplyDeleteFor Cdr rush WOTA and build visage early only if it calls for it, you dont want to get 40% cdr asap as it does take away from his power, but enough to have it to the point you can eq, eq them to 60%~ in 3.5 seconds. If you focus vlad you're doing it horribly wrong due to with zhonyas you have multiple ways of dropping agro in teamifghts as if you're a good vlad you take ghost/flash i.e. at least a relevant escape for most times in game. Getting good cs with vlad is a breeze after level 5 and early just playing him a few matches to help getting used to the aa animation and spped makes it a true non issue considering after revolver he can get almost every cs he needs no consequnce. Not every strong top laner needs to have those credentials you listed, his pros are more than enough to offset the aforementioned, bar beefiness where late game you become a VERY bruiser-like champ defensive wise (passive op!), may not have initiation but teamfghts like a god and with good kiting potential becomes a formidable fighter too.
When was lack of burst an issue? Kayle is a god for her sustained damage output so that is a embarrassing argument to justify lack of usefulness, utility brought from ult btw, and as an ability to carry teams on his own he is more than viable than what you give credit for. Not to mention this tier list in context is "In their roles, these are the camps that can carry their teams on their own the best for one reason or another". And Vlad without a shadow of a doubt is one of the top contenders.
Thanks for updating the list to patch 4.8! I always check your tier list since quite some patches and really think yours is the best one (mobafire: fiora top tier 3 haha). But there's one thing I don't understand. Why is Leblanc in Tier 1 but constantly has one of the lowest win rates (fith lowest at the moment (lolking) with 45.31%)? And why does she have such a low winrate? If there's a Leblanc on the field I almost always see her dominating (Gold). I know she has a strong laning phase but not the best team fight and late game presence. But still, the 5th worst winrate?
ReplyDeleteAs much as I love playing Riven, I don't think she's that amazing a pick right now. She literally has the worst sustain in lane of any champ before she gets a vamp scepter, and heavily relies on her (10 second cooldown) shield to avoid being forced out of lane. She is pretty nice for setting up kills, and snowballs pretty hard, but eh.
ReplyDeleteSuper fun champ, but I think she's tiered appropriately.
I'd like to highligh Vel'Koz support for a moment.
ReplyDeleteVel'Koz support offers a unique playstyle that is seperate from other supports. Let's look at what his kit offers: (q) a 70% range slow; (w) a damaging ability placed in the middle of his cc combo; (e) a knockup, and potential knock-BACK; (r) highly damaging ray of basically true damage with 20% slow. That's right, his kit includes 3 forms of ranged cc at a range - Leona is green with envy. Oh, and did I mention they are all AOE?
What does this kit do? It offers ranged AP poke - like Zyra or Morgana - that augments landing the rest of his abilities. It offers zoning. It offers disengage. It offers single-handedly killin- I mean, Kill SECURING for the ADC. With Vel'Koz, players now additionally have a support option with high base damage values.
Is Vel'Koz tanky? Of course not. He'll cry under focus. Yet, Vel'Koz forces the enemy bot lane to choose between focusing him, or his adc. This is significant, as other AP supports can struggle to accomplish anything once their adc is down - yet Vel can finish the execution should his ADC die. I'd like to see Nami, Lulu, or Janna do that on the same frequency as Vel'Koz. Yes, Vel is weak to assassins and cc - I don't think that weakness is enough to warrent placing him below other supports; when it comes down too it, many of them are weak to cc and assassination (Sona...).
Seriously, try Vel'Koz bot lane. He offers poke, zoning, all in, and high damage with low gold income, as well as reasonable disengage (especially with speed boost from Heal).
Strong ADC Synergy:
ReplyDelete1) Miss Fortune: offers poke and Ulti Combo
2) Jinx: VK slows amp up the duration of enemies in her chain gun range, high complimentary cc, can cleanup after Vel'Koz Ulti (should it merely cripple formally full hp enemy).
3) Lucian: Burst
4) Twitch: AOE, True Damage, Ulti synergy.
Oh god I hope you don't breed. That's a Vlad biased argument through and through, and you obviously don't play against Jax.
ReplyDeleteKayle has a LOT of burst you idiot. Her E! It does a megaton of damage mid-late game, especially if you're building her correctly and you're doing well.
Vlad does not have any burst (which is a problem). People like LB will burst him down before he can even pool. Ziggs will zone him down and keep him from attacking. He gives low utility to the team as well, which means a teamfight will be a problem. Targets 1 person, right? Whoah, there's a CD. Crap, I got bursted by the enemy Orianna.
That happens almost every time.
He has no CC, when his W's off he has no escape and is VERY susceptible to ganks, his early game is worse than Jax's (how in the world does he beat Jax besides that bad argument that shows a good vlad vs. a Bronze 5 Jax), and he's not a contender in dueling in lane.
She's a high risk, high reward champion. You get kills, doom will befall all of your opponents. You get killed, doom will befall you.
ReplyDeleteShe's a hit and miss champion, but her burst is huge, if not the best in the game.
If she wasn't so reliant on skill she would be God.
If I could upvote more than once, I would by a thousand.
ReplyDeletePeople have been overlooking this for a long time, and this needs to be said.
>Vlad outscales Jax
ReplyDeleteI was tempted to stop reading after such an outlandish claim. Apparently, a Jax 78% ban rate (based 100% on his lategame scaling and objective control) means nothing to you. If you're going to continue arguing that Vlad is OP, needs nerfs, and is God Teir, I suggest you back up your claims with something more credible than personal experience.
Well now with BORK, Trinity he can even duel at reasonably low levels now.
ReplyDeleteThe 4 Dorans blade Youmuus start
ReplyDeletewhy is vayne so low i tot she was OP
ReplyDeleteyes Only have I recently picked up vlad into my ranked top arsenal, (renekton is my main, had a hard time from leaving him) played from around 60~ norm matches and while they are from opinions, isnt every argument made solely from opinions in this game? Everything is subjective not objective, and raw stats are not enough to justify most arguments, regardless of rank. Yet the issue here is you're arguing "this hyper carry, outscales this hyper carry" and you're saying "kayles e is GREAT burst, even though its an aa buff i.e. damage over time OH WAIT vlad is the same thing!" When you're not responding to my arguments for vlads placement instead, this is a discussion about vlad, not other champions.
ReplyDeleteYeah I know that it can go both ways with her, but that would mean the winrate should be at about 50%. And 45% is not only a little bit below average.
ReplyDeleteI agree that you will burst down one person in a teamfight, but mostly not more than this one person because the fight will probably be over when the spells are up again.
Don't misunderstand me, I don't think Leblanc should be Tier 5, but I don't understand her low winrate. (She's my safest champ, when I really have to win I always pick her.)
Dude, you say the winrate is very important for this tier list but you say that 45% winrate-Leblanc should be God Tier? Explain that.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the explanation, She just feels really strong when i play her. It's almost like she's deceivingly good but i can definitely see what your saying with her skill cap, matchups and predictability.
ReplyDeleteShe's more of a skill champion, More people do bad with her than good.
ReplyDeleteExcellent tier list as always!
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to say THANK YOU for acknowledging Zyra for the powerhouse she is!! She is currently my favorite mid/support. She has always been strong: all of her abilities are aoe (even her passive!), she has massive aoe cc, and her plants provide sustained damage after her burst combo (and that burst is really high). Yes, she's squishy, but she has a free bush checking ability and massive cc to make up for it. Zyra, alone, can control a teamfight and provide all the cc a team could ever need. She really is one of the best supports/mid laners and I'm happy other people are seeing it that way.
Give Zyra a try if you haven't already. Honestly, it's a surprise to me when I play her support if my adc (or anyone on my team in many cases) out-damages me.
4. Indeed she snowballs really well but if she doesn't or she gets shutted down she's almost useless
ReplyDelete6. Rengar is really strong I definitely agree but I think he's a little bit snowball-dependant.
7. Compare Evelynn's winrate to Warwick's: in Korea WW is one of the most banned champs (so is Evelynn).
9. SSJ talked about Lee some time ago: he said that for us common mortals he is Tier 1, in high tiers he's a god but as you said several times this tier list is for Bronze/Silver/Gold.
11. I think Blitz is where he deserves to be, he needs a strong laner too.
Someone can explain why zyra is a god support now?
ReplyDeleteIm surprised Akali is so low in the mid tier supposing her extreme burst damage and snowballing potential, even if she does have a weak early game. She is also increasing in popularity on EUW right now in my recent games, so if someone can give reasons and/or opinions on this i would appreciate it :D
ReplyDeleteAkali is what you call a noob-stomper: Great snowballer and can carry games at lower elo/unranked, but easily countered in higher levels of play. Similar to Katarina and Master Yi, they have great damage, but minimal CC, so they can easily get shut down by skilled players.
ReplyDeleteWell, A "support" Zyra can instakill you faster than the ADC. Without Kills.And her poke is just.... dumb, She can take care of the lane by herself no problem, AAAANDDD she has amazing CC so she can also engage very well
ReplyDeleteTrust me if she gets picked/banned you're gonna be sad like I'm because of Kayle bans :(
ReplyDeleteUp to this stage in the argument, i agreed with pretty much everything you had stated, regardless of the fact that i main udyr in the jungle. having over 200 games played with him, i struggle to see the difficulty in playing this champ, but what you said made me consider what is was like first picking him up and i completely understand where you're coming from when you mention his skill reliance. mana sustain, timings, pathing etc al have to be damn near perfect to pull of this champion, and coming from a silver player, i cant say im really that great at any of these :p however, what don said in his last reply does reply does sort of thwart your attempts at putting all this across, since much of your argument is based on winrate, yet don is right in saying you want to see LB in god with her measly 45% win rate. I do sort of understand your explanation prior to this as her being a 'high risk high reward' champion, but im my elo, leblanc's tend to not know what to do as the game progresses, despite having a great start in lane, and since silver's dont really know how to finish off games, leblanc had less and less of an impact.
ReplyDeletethere should be a new tier above god called rengar tier
ReplyDeleteHalt! I saw the use of "it's how the player plays that!" So if every player was considered a.. Uh.... Let's say Bronze 4. Most High-skill cap champions would be a tier-3 to him and let's also say he runs off of a toaster. So right then most Tier 1's are gunned down to tier-3 Even though God-tier is left alone for the most part (with the exception to Kha'zix IMHO). But now let's see a Diamond 2 player, Likely now most of the high skill-cap champs. with exceptions of course! But now many tier-1's and 2's are in God-tier. This I just wanted to show is that you must base it off the player!!!! with every little thing (i.e: Lag, Rank, etc). So please! Some deserve higher
ReplyDeleteP.S I also agree with the Udyr being a monster. :)
ReplyDeleteSoooo Donger not god tier mid...hmm idk about that
ReplyDeleteHi Don, thanks for visiting! I think ShadowSect explained it well. I'll also add that a lot of her power in high level play comes from the intelligent use of her ultimate when deciding which of her skills to mirror. This needs to be decided very quickly, and could potentially have the ability to make or break a game if leblanc is the main "carry" of the team with all the kills.
ReplyDeleteHer CC is also much more skill based than a lot of other AP mids, and requires her to stay within range before it takes full effect, meaning that it's more of a follow-up skill than an initiation ability. In her case, her main initiation is killing an enemy champion, which as ShadowSect mentioned is a high risk, high reward type of play.
just wondering, do you think rengar is stronger in the jungle or top? and if in the jungle, is it worth going flare or just lizard?
ReplyDeleteI agree 100% with 1, 3, 7, 9 and 12
ReplyDelete2. Tier 4 might be exaggerated, but Hecarim definitely should be down in tier 2 or 3
4. High tier 2 is a good place for her, as she has heavy damage, and if she is given a blue buff by her jungler, she is a monster. I will acknowledge that some elements of her set, such as avoiding walling out your own team from a fight, can be tough, but Anivia is pretty strong
5. I'm saying this as a Silver 4, roughly 50th percentile on the ranked ladder, and I see Leblanc as a very specific pick. If I'm playing a weak early game champ such as nidalee, I know Im in trouble, but when playing a high waveclear champ with an escape, such as ziggs, I can just rain down bombs and end laning phase with a neutral or positive KD and equal farm and then outdo her in teamfights
6. I can't argue, as I haven't seen him enough
8. Yasuo relies far too much on his team to do well in a teamfight. Getting off 3 q's takes time, and given how squishy Yasuo is, 10 seconds of time to prepare is a bit long. When I play Yasuo with a Vi or Wukong, we can consistently duo carry no matter how badly the game goes, but without allied knockups Yasuo deserves Tier 1
10. Send Twitch to god, he deserves it, but Miss Fortune is a strong pick in my opinion. Like Jinx or Draven, she has high damage at the cost of immobility. In laning phase, her damage output is incredible, and while teamfights can be dangerous in the mobility meta, one good ult, which isn't too hard with the amount of cc in the meta, will win a teamfight. Maybe high tier 1, but MF is a strong pick
11. I'm going to quote Riot for this one "Given Blitz already has strong utility (gated by his long cooldowns), some mana cost reductions means he should be able to bring Amumu to your team more often." Blitzcrank can be good, but just about every Blitzcrank I've seen in several months will grab either a minion (hiding behind minions works so well against Blitz) or when team fights come around, he will grab the enemy tank (such as Riot's Amumu), initiator, or assassin and bring him to the back line to murder your adc and mid laner. I just never see a Blitz who uses his grab well.
Why is Warwick a god tier jungle?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I think fiora is an easy champion to shut down if you have good cc. Why is she a god?
R-R-R-R-Rude.
ReplyDeleteGood arguments for Yasuo and Blitz.
ReplyDeleteA good Blitz (yes, they exist) will wait for an opportunity to grab an ADC or APC (non assassins or initators). But, as you mentioned, all too often Blitz players fail to pull the right person. Sometimes, those opportunities don't even exist - lategame Blitz requires enemies to be out of position, which becomes more rare in higher elos.
That would be absolutely true if those weren't expensive items.
ReplyDeleteAnd some ADCs are good at denying farm, unlike Kog.
But I'll take it.
I guess people are playing her wrong, which makes me twitch.
ReplyDeleteWhat LB excels at is not being a pick up or play champion, but a counterpick.
Oh, that person locked in Orianna. LB!
Oh, that person locked in Ziggs. LB!
Oh, that person locked in Kassadin. LB!
For about half of midlaners, that's how she works.
The other half will snowball her over though.
Yes, if you pick up and play her, she's tier 3, but if you use her as a counterpick to champions she's good against, she excels. Because that's what she was made for.
The thing that LB has that makes her so good at teamfights is single burst on a target. While the fight may be over, she won't be dead. Her jump is really, really good. She can escape and just wait for CDs to come back, and then target someone again after they separate.
I don't know the word for it, but I think she has great teamfight AFTERMATH presence.
Check my comment again above.
ReplyDelete4, Um, I want her lower not higher.
ReplyDelete6. He's snowball dependent, but not to the point of LB snowball dependent. He can do really well if behind and with a decent player. I agree his teamfights will not do well, but he's really good at ganking and getting a kill.
7. Korea is completely different. Their meta is very, very different than ours. I wouldn't judge by win rate, as Eve is banned 1/4 of all games, but I see your point.
9. Agreed, but I don't even main him and I'm doing rather well in the pick up and play regard. His kicks are devastating in teamfights.
11. He needs a strong laner, but not so much of one. He's always been the same, just now he has a spammable ult and is a little less likely to be oom in lane. And his win rate has gone up recently, just recently hitting 51% from what used to be 49.6%. I may be predicting what I see too early, but it may happen.
Look at my argument again with don above with LB.
ReplyDeleteI don't want to change this argument into LB right now, as she's a whole different ball game. People are playing LB wrong, and that's what is making her lower.
Almost equal. He's strong in both jungle and top, but Jungle is a little bit better. Lizard, most definitely. Flare doesn't work too well on the cat, especially if you don't end up snowballing.
ReplyDeleteHey, it needed to be said.
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to take an argument from someone who just recently picked up vlad, clearly hasn't played 600 games with him according to his profile in normal, and thinks he's the best person in the world because of 3 games he's won.
Actually, I think he should be Tier 2!
ReplyDeleteHis win rate is lowering fast, just 5 days ago it was 54% and now it's 52 already.
The nerfs from 4.5 finally hit him hard.
He's becoming more and more of a skill champion. If you place turrets wrong, you're dead. If you're caught by a gank too many times because he lacks an escape, you're dead. If you have no turrets up because you ran out of mana, you're dead (he's entirely dependent on his turrets). Not to mention he's still very squishy with a full build, like LB.
Lee sin= Skill Needed. Udyr= Face Role.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea. She definitely has problems against Leona, Thresh, and Braum.
ReplyDeleteAll of her abilities are skillshots, she's one of the squishiest champions in the game (even squishier than Sona, by all regards), she has long CDs on most of her kit, and she doesn't synergize well with some ADCs.
I don't care about her damage, tank supports will just chalk it up, and even then a gank will just execute her right off the bat. She doesn't even have amazing CC with those large CDs. Tier 1 is where she should be. AP Zyra is far more better than her support.
I read your post and it got me interested, so i tried it. It's honestly pretty good. Can you give an example build you go for and what skills you max chronologically?
ReplyDeleteOn stream, Scarra said that Wukong was a terrible jungler. What do you think he meant by that?
ReplyDelete1. I wouldn't take 1 person's opinion about a jungler, especially someone who doesn't actually jungle. Is he not a mid laner?
ReplyDelete2. Wukong is a terrific jungler. He shouldn't be God where he is, but he's definitely Tier 1. His win rate is almost always 53%, he has great damage, he's very tanky, he's a great duelist, fantastic presence in teamfights (due to a game-changing ult that does very good AoE damage), fantastic at chasing down targets, and he can juke really really well.
The only downside I can think of is his lack of CC, but he ganks really really well.
Tier 1.
I wouldn't understand why a pro hates a certain jungler, especially one who doesn't play jungle constantly. Did he mean that he hates going against him?
Tier 2 is fine.
ReplyDeleteSo she's increasing in popularity, that doesn't necessarily mean she's good, especially since she only has a win rate of 49%. She has problems against the current meta of mid laners that outrange her and deny her all hope of farm, mainly Syndra and Orianna. God help you if you're going against Annie, Morgana, or LB.
She definitely has a lot of burst damage, and she has a great escape coupled with her mobility, but she's hard to master, which makes her a problem for Bronzies, 1/3 of who this list targets (Bronze through Gold). Like I said, she has many counters in mid lane (I think you mean that top Akali is getting more attention, which it is because there are less counters). She's very item dependent, and can't do anything without her gunblade, as well as the fact that gets ruined by CC from people like Syndra and, like you said, has a VERY weak early game.
I myself am working on figuring out what works best. I'll give it a shot a what I think is good and not good on him. I think build order itself is pretty situational otherwise.
ReplyDeleteWARNING: LONG POST WITHOUT TLDR.
Skill order: Start with q. At the time of post, this is what I've been maxing first as well. At level 2, ALWAYS get e, as your e is VK's disengage as well as your cc chain. Unlock W at level 3 if you anticipate trades, or put another point in q if the poke game is going well for you.
Maxing Q vs Maxing W: Mid Lane VK maxes w for waveclear and sustained damage. I am considering trying this on support, but am hesitant - the pro is that you can harrass through minions with your w; the con is that VK WILL take cs. So far, I believe support VK should max q, then w mid game. A maxed q will make your poke hurt more.
Build: Trinket's: Start Warding, get Sweeper's after Sightstone (or upgrade to Vision Warding Trinket). Gold Item: Spelltheif, as you will be poking a lot. Ancient coin is acceptable if you don't think you will land your skillshot's reliably (remember though, auto attacks proc the passive on Spelltheif). Both items offer disengage - which is essential for VK repositioning and VK's Ulti line up.
Core Items: VK offers high bases damage with mediocre AP ratios (I think they're sitting around 0.5 and 0.6). Therefore, he scales well with Magic Pen. Rush Gold item in lane and Sightstone. After those, Sorc Boots and Haunting Guise are good pickups. I definately think Liandry's is a lategame core item.
Other AP options: Athena's Holy Grail is a rush option. It does not offer protection from the botlane ADC, but can against AP Supports - esp Morgana and Zyra - as well as AP Mids/Tops. Crucible can work as well against CC. I'm looking into Rod of Ages as well for survivability against assassins, and ulti's like Ezreal's or Jinx's. Not sure if it works or not, ROA might take too long to build. Void Staff is a lategame Magic Pen option as well. Morellonomicon is surprisingly strong, and synergizes very nicely with VK's Ulti. Support Lux can grab Mejai's SoulStealer, and VK can too. ArchAngel Staff might work, haven't tried it myself.
AP Options to Avoid: Rylai's Cystaline Scepter. The item is redundant, as it only procs off VK's w (remember, Q is already a 70% slow, R is 20%). Essentially, you're paying 2900 for 500 hp and 80 AP. I have run Zhonya's Hourglass several times in the last matches... I don't think it's worth it. In teamfights, VK's relies on his kit to peel for himself - if his kit can't peel or you miss skillshots, all Zhonya's does is let the rest of the enemies get assists on your inevitable death. Only useful if you value the stats for 3200 - this item is better on other mages. Abyssal Scepter is for short range mages - VK's long range cannot utilize this frequently enough. Only get this if you're getting dived by multiple mages. Sheen items - e.g. Lich Bane - might work out in lane, but VK is more valued for his burst and execution in teamfights.
Remember that these suggestions are tailored around VK as an Aggresive, Poke AP-Support. This build is for an alternate APC on your team. As such, you won't see me suggest items like Locket or Frozen Heart. Tank VK might emerge one day due to his high base values - similar to tank Evelynn or tank Elise - but I think such a build would be too item dependent and dishonor Vel'Koz's kit for what it is made for.
I think he's still strong, but if the enemy support keeps pink wards handy it's hard for him to engage without building tanky.
ReplyDeletewhat buffs did kha get?
ReplyDeleteSee, here is my plan: ALERT! ALERT! THIS IS NOT FOR SOLO QUEUE BUT IT IS A RANKED 5's STRATEGY! THOU HAVE BEEN WARNED-----Okay! so what I do in situations like this when you are with and adc that needs farm My team will switch out the adc (Kog'maw normally right now) with top or mid (preferably mid). Have support cycle with jungler in ganks and counter farming, but for the most part have him hover over mid to get the xp. While having a long-range champ that has great waveclear (Ziggs) go bot-side to keep them off tower, Normally we use Ziggs due to his ability to get out of tough spots). So as long as you aren't bursted down in the mid-lane and play safe it works!
ReplyDelete(FYI: My team is Plat IV but I am only Gold 2 atm, so I am definately not the most experianced).
Hey! I am the master of all Leblancs with a total of 1.5 games going 6-23-4 in those games!
ReplyDeleteHis evolved leap has a slightly lower cooldown.
ReplyDeleteoooooo Irelia 1 tier <3
ReplyDeleteAdded Vek'Koz Support
ReplyDeleteFiora has really powerful early dueling, her ult lets her blow everything up in a team fight, and she pushes towers ridiculously fast. Warwick chases really well, and duels really well. He can also ult to basically just guarantee that victim's death.
ReplyDeleteAdd Anivia support. Max frostbite then wall. It's really easy to corner people, slow them, stun them, and chunk with frostbite, all while your adc is blasting them.
ReplyDeleteok fair enough :)
ReplyDeletewould you recommend picking him up then?
ReplyDeleteWhat about Jayce? I know that he hasn't really had it since the nerfs to his kit and tear nerfs but he's on the bottom end of tier 2. Will he ever get back up into the higher tiers?
ReplyDeleteIve always found she's too mana dependant to work consistently as a support, the wall is pretty strong but I dont think she's any higher than tier 4
ReplyDeleteshe only has problems against leona considering thresh and braum are much easier to avoid their engages, braum is very weak against zyra and is one of the only if not the only unfavorable braum matchup in lane currently, and thresh due to her easy wards from her seeds as well with great bush control, has highest support damage output, most likely due to the items she builds. She currently is hovering with about a 54%!!!! win rate, extremely high and says something about the champ at least. "tank supports will just chalk it up", you do realize her abilitys go through more than one target right? What moron is focusing the support rather than the adc? Its not hard either due to her very long range ability's.
ReplyDeleteShe does have downsides yes, yet thats never stopped a champ from being bad. And currently its showing not only in low elo, but high elo up to lcs even too.
im confused with kassadin being in the god tier i played him in a couple games and i feel like a dont do any damage.
ReplyDeleteIts mainly due to the fact after the rework kassadins late game prowess has been moved to his early game trading not making him a roflstomp champ if he gets ahead, he has a lot of favorable lane matchups vs weak early game casters or melee champs i.e. kat,fizz etc. Not going into more paragraphs hes a lot more reliable to get ahead as before shutting him down SHUT HIM DOWN, now he has even more mobility than before (gj rito) thus making roaming and catching back up as you should be behind still in lane, also he has a lot more build paths than he did before. Full ap is still the best and most viable way to go, but off-tank builds or straight anti caster builds work just as well if not better in some circumstances.
ReplyDeletewukong is an amazing champion and can be be with high effectiveness in 3 roles. id say god tier jungler is an overstatement after the nerfs but he is definetly not terrible and is unqestionably tier 1. He has insanely good team fight and late game. wukong is a weak duelist in comparison to other junglers and not the best clear or early game ganking presence but once he gets level 6 the game should slowly turn in wukongs favor if the enemy team hasn't got an advantage to capitalize on (and often even if they do). his teamfight however, is next to none and after level 6 ganking becomes easy and he snowballs HARD. His build is very static too as you can be the tank or an assassin. I might be biased as a wukong main to him being stronger but i feel he should at least be tier 1 and no lower. I personally think wukong is most effective in the mid lane.
ReplyDeleteactually kassadins late game is even stronger than before. they just removed his silence making him much more vulnerable in he laning phase.
ReplyDeleteI don't see the average of playing velkoz, who has soft cc and good damage, over other champions like zyra, karma,lulu, and morgana who all have good damage, hard cc, and fast better utility.
ReplyDeleteVK has higher damage potential than Morgana and Lulu (support path). He has more cc than Zyra. VK also has one hard cc ability - his e - that can interrupt, say, a Katarina Ulti. As for Karma, Karma is more versatile with her Mantra... But doesn't have a raw, teamfight turning Ulti.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I'm claiming VK support provides: an All-In that practically guarantees a kill at level 6. The tradeoff is that other AP supports can provide utility to make up for their lack of damage.
ok thank you. what would you say is the best build for him?
ReplyDeleteThere are frequent circumstances where the Support is lower health and easier to kill, or is out of position and easy to kill, or gets caught by a Thresh Hook: all of these are easy times to pick up an easy kill on the support.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, plenty of players focus the support. I'd much rather focus a Zyra than a Braum or Leona.
Finally, Braum is also countered by Morgana. Go figure, she counters every other tanky cc support.
nonono i worded that poorly looking back on it, i meant to saw that as zyra her abilitys are long range and go through more than 1 target so you're never forced to focus the support solely because they are on top of you, and as such her damage output both pre and post 6 are high enough to the point where if the adc is also attacking the adc they can instagimp them and prevent any fatal damage output.
ReplyDeleteId say the removal of his silence hindered his late game more a now if the adc is mobile i.e ezreal caitlin graves etc, considering kassadins main burst spell is *insert sheen item here* along with w so the enemy team can kill kass before he does that to them, but with zhonyas and a 3 second cd riftwalk it wont be that much of an issue if the stacks are relatively low.
ReplyDeleteBut I see what you're saying, either way kass is still a god and until the address his ultimate in DRASTIC ways, hell always find a way as the most reliable ap assassin in the game.
the best build is typically based on the enemy team but ill go over the 3 ive seen the most, and address them from my experience.
ReplyDeleteFull ap kass: insta burst enemy squishys and zhonyas then ults out late game, takes time to ramp up more than other kassadins but has strongest late game.
Off-tank kass: almost like a ryze build, you want to get archangels staff, rod, frozen heart, and iceborn gauntlets, boots, and filler item. Its mainly used vs very frail teams as it gives kass a very durable build to stick onto the adc without dying instantly, and massive mana usage makes riftwalk an actual part of his burst, rather than a slight damage gap closer.
Anti Mage Kass: My favorite kassadin build to play as, you basically stack a lot of ap,cdr and magic resist, the reason why is kass has a weak enough lane phase where almost all of the time other than a few matchups the enemy laner WILL be ahead of you, and playing with the build will allow you to wreck them without them destroying your team once the teamfighting starts. Or if you follow them if and or when they roam on you. Also I almost always consider using this if they have an ap mid + another set of champs that would justify a usage of the build (Tanky Elise, support karma, beefy ap top).
Overall kass is still in a very good spot right now. Give him a try before riot try's to "balance" him out again, he really is worthy or god tier positioning!
ok thanks so much! i really appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, that win rate isn't solely based on Zyra support. Zyra mid is rising in popularity over Zyra support, hence why I said it was better.
ReplyDeleteZyra support is Tier 1, not God.
The problem that Zyra has, which you're ignoring, is that she has long CDs! I missed my E, crap. My Q doesn't apply any CC, I'm screwed.
That happens. Not all the time, but it happens.
You haven't played her recently or EVER in solo queue, both support or mid. Play her both ways, and come back to me.
Um...
ReplyDeleteHe has problems versus half of the popular top laners, which are still Renekton, Jax, and Shyvana. She wouldn't even be able to do that because she's getting ruined by the enemy top laner, and if she can't snowball she's pretty much out of the game. Powerful early dueling? BS. Maybe against squishy tops, but if you're going against a tanky top you're going to need your jungler's help a lot.
Warwick's always been able to do that, but he has one of the worst early games of any jungler (not as bad as Sej's though). A counterjungle will ruin him, he's still reliant on his FF which got nerfed, and he only has 1 cc which can be interrupted.
He's not exactly God material if junglers like Lee Sin can counterjungle and then win off of killing him.
Not played enough, goes oom quickly, bad synergy with ADCs.
ReplyDeleteShe also needs farm to do well, which ruins her in the end.
If you mean do I hope he gets buffed, absolutely.
ReplyDeleteHere's 2 guides that I recommend:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/how-to-build-the-new-kass-368326 (Use his 4th one, freelo)
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/the-voidwalker-rises-in-depth-netherblade-max-379157
Ya maybe but at least for me those ganks turn into double kills and there is only one champ that I ever have a problem with and that's obviously syndra and even than they have to be good with her. maybe I just play him that well 8D. He is squishy but that's what hourglass is for. Those penta kills
ReplyDeletethe silence nerf hurt him at all stages of the game. but the ult cooldown buff only added to his late game, so the nerfs were more to the laning phase. and the magic shield is also more useful for the late game than early game. im not a kass main so take my opinion wih a grain of salt.
ReplyDeletewhat order should i max the abilities in? both guides say to max different things first
ReplyDeletehe'll get shut down hard by wukong due to heimer being susceptible to burst damage, and his turrets target wukong's decoy.
ReplyDeletefirora is in no way a god teir top laner -_-
ReplyDeleteagainst most lanes you want to max q for the trading potential that it allows against an ap opponent considering most mid laners are ap. w against mainly ad camps as when their in your face you have some trading back potential, and e you'll almost always want to max 2nd UNLESS you use it to waveclear like crazy and get as many roams off as you can
ReplyDeleteok thanks
ReplyDeleteYou have to be good with Syndra to defeat Heimy?
ReplyDeletePlease. You smash turrets.
Even with items, like I said, he's still squishy. He's squishy than most of the other mids with a full build.
And Heimerdinger doesn't just have problems with Syndra. He has problems with Ziggs (who can zone him, outpoke him, and outrange him, and even possibly outfarm him), Lux (outpoke and outrange), and Kayle (outburst and better late game).
Maybe even Orianna if she's good.
The username definitely tells us something, but at least your argument isn't biased.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, don't you mean his build is very dynamic, not static.
Wasn't jarvan in tier 1 before? When did he drop to tier 2? In top lane, I mean
ReplyDeleteTop laners got better, Jarvan IV is a better jungler, yada yada yada.
ReplyDeleteHe's far better when he's ganking as a jungler.
Lol you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Try playing heimer then come back to me.
ReplyDeleteDon, Leo, don't try to even talk to ShadowSect about win-rates, he's inconsistent at best lol according to him win-rate is everything except for certain champs like Leblanc (then the abysmal win-rate doesn't mean much, just that people don't know how to play her lol). Just a kid on the forums, what I recommend is using SSJ's tier list in conjunction with your own findings and trends on LoLKing. Best way to go!
ReplyDeleteDon, Leo, don't try to even talk to ShadowSect about win-rates, he's inconsistent at best lol according to him win-rate is everything except for certain champs like Leblanc (then for some reason the abysmal win-rate doesn't mean anything, just that people don't know how to play her lol). Just a kid on the forums, what I recommend is using SSJ's tier list in conjunction with your own findings and trends on LoLKing. Best way to go!
ReplyDeleteCould we get a discussion going on Tristana as an ADC? Does someone with a fair amount of experience with her have an opinion on her early-game strength, in particular?
ReplyDeleteAlso, how's everyone building Xin Zhao these days? What damage items are worth getting on him before transitioning into tank items, generally? Also, what summoner spells/masteries are people using for him when played top-lane?
Yeah that's what i mean. I love jayce he is such a badass character with his different utility options but he needs some lovin' for sure.
ReplyDeleteMy other question is in this meta possibly my favorite character in the game right now is Aatrox. His passive is insane, he does crazy damage and will scare the sht out of unaware laners he ganks. So my question is this, do you think based on this meta right now does he do better top lane or better jungle? and in the jungle is it worth it to get feral flare on him despite feral flare's nerfs?
ReplyDeleteI feel Nunu should be added mid lane. He's a big bully.
ReplyDeleteSo, we can get Caitlyn and Yorick support, but no Anivia? Mana really isn't an issue if you can position correctly and land your Q. I've played it a lot and it works really well. Even with Urgot.
ReplyDelete15 extra AD at level one makes a huge difference, and so does 60% attack speed. I don't know why you're comparing her to the top laners that almost everyone has problems with, it doesn't really help the argument much. She's not out of the game if she doesn't snowball, because she can split push extremely well.
ReplyDeleteIn jungle, feral flare for sure. I play him both. He sustains really well, so he's good when people try to bully you out of lane. About the same in top and jungle.
ReplyDeleteJungle Xin Zhao: I've had success building Feral Flare into Bork, then going Randuin's or Spirit Visiage. Bork is fantastic as it synergizes with his w and allows him to kill most champs in skirmishes (as well as make his good ganks into great ganks). Any other damage items are going to make his early build too expensive, and glass cannon Xin Zhao is pretty bad. That said, I know some players go Trinity on him if they are snowballing. As a side note, if I get good vision on the other jungler, I find it very easy to take early towers - e.g. Vi jungle is toplane, so as Xin I gank botlane to shove for tower. If Xin's team picks up a kill on a ganked lane, it typically means that tower between 10-20mins.
ReplyDeleteI don't play him top lane, but I've had a few on my team. They usually go Ignite/Flash or Teleport/Flash to help out with dragon.
why isnt thresh in god tier support??? he's one of the most OP supports right now seeing as he gets like a 99% pick rate
ReplyDeleteRengar or Kha zix? Top and Jungle
ReplyDeleteRengar is better top, Kha is better jungle.
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that the meta is flavoring towards heavy engage and/or disengage supports, Thresh excels in making picks and providing unique utility (lantern) but falls short in the rest. Still my favorite support, I'm actually happy for this since chances are he won't be picked/banned as much now. :)
ReplyDeleteWhy Zyra "mid" is raising? she is super-mega squishy (obviously+when ganked) and is not an easy champion to play.
ReplyDeleteLol actually, I do. Don't just assume I've never played heimerdinger just because you disagree with me.
ReplyDeleteHeimerdinger is ousted by the new meta of Syndra and Orianna currently. Any person who can match them or does well against them fits in the meta. Heimerdinger, unfortunately, sucks at both.
You do realize he got nerfed, right?
Oh look, it's you again.
ReplyDeleteAssuming I'm a kid, that's a new one.
Win rate doesn't mean everything, dimwit. It means a lot for others, but LB is special. Every champion has his/her own playstyle, it's not like they are all the same. If that was true, then Riot could've stopped at 1 champion that everyone played.
You're the only person who just flat out disagrees with me, ignores every single part of my argument except for 1, disagrees with it highly and disregards anything that counters it otherwise, like her huge ban rate!
Or maybe you don't know what a win rate is, do you...
She can splitpush well, that's true, but so can Jax.
ReplyDeleteIf she's weak to the most popular top laners, that's a problem! Jax, Renekton, and Shyv are literally the most popular top laners int he game, not people everyone has a problem with. I personally never have a problem with a Shyv unless she's fed, excuse you.
Stop being like Squirrelnutkins and disregarding my whole argument except for 1 thing and then pushing it.
You're Bronze 2 anyway, why would you understand?!? You've never even played Fiora in solo queue, or Warwick for that matter. You've only played 12 solo queue games anyway.
You haven't even played them recently in normal queue!
15 extra AD actually doesn't make a huge difference, if at all. 60% attack speed that also has a long CD yet only lasts for 3 seconds. But we'll forget about that, I presume.
Not played enough, win rate of 46% anyway, and everyone in midlane outranges him, outfarmes him, and kills him rather quickly.
ReplyDelete99% pick rate? Sure. 35% is totally 99%.
ReplyDeleteAnd popularity doesn't say at all about how someone is op. His win rate, however, is 49%.
Why? Low mobility, hard to play especially for Bronzies, his AA has a slow delay, his passive both helps him and hurts him, weak against high-ranged champions like Caitlyn (the most popular ADC), Tristana, and Lulu, some people don't always click the lantern, his Q has a windup that's predictable, and he can be squishy if he doesn't have enough souls mid game.
True she's squishy (most mids are), but in mid (unlike her support) she can get enough farm to do really well. She does really good burst damage (especially for teamfights), she has 3 AoE spells (also good for teamfights), she has one of the best engages and disengages, her ult is a gamechanger that also has a knockup, she has a W which gives her free CDR, and like SSJ said, she has fantastic trading potential in lane.
ReplyDeleteThresh is heavily reliant on team skill-level. It is much easier to carry and raise ELO with a straightforward, aggressive support like Morgana, Leona, and Braum, where all you do is stun the enemy for easy kills. Thresh requires his allies to read what he's doing with his lantern, and to follow up on Thresh's combo - which offers a different kind of cc.
ReplyDeleteShe's not just squishy, she has 355 health at lv 1 (it's the 4th lowest in the game).
ReplyDeleteI think you have to be really good with her because of this (or I'm just really bad with her xD).
Eh, I've never really had a problem with her mid. Her E is so useful in teamfights, it's astonishing. And then in conjunction with your ult....
ReplyDeleteSmooth sailing.
While the lane may not be as good, no matter how behind you are as Zyra, teamfights will be in your favor.
Just because a champion relies on moderate skill doesn't mean they aren't god tier, I believe that the problem with this is it's highly opinion based, leona is dieing off due to the heavy damage supports coming back into the meta and so personally I wouldn't say she's god tier, she is also heavily item reliant whereas thresh is OP from the get go. You'll disagree with me but I don't care. In high ELO (what in talking about) thresh is god tier. If you were talking about bronze players that don't even know how to click the lantern then you might as well dodge queue until you don't have to play support
ReplyDeleteUm... I didn't say any of those...
ReplyDeleteI slightly agree with what you're saying but the meta (in my opinion) is shifting more towards damage supports who knows....
ReplyDeleteHow is it shifting towards heavy damage supports?!? The most popular supports are Braum, Thresh, and Leona. None of those are heavy damage supports.
ReplyDeleteDidn't say any of those? Specify what 'those' are please
ReplyDeletewell for one, I didn't say anything about Thresh being heavy reliant or Leona. You also ignored most of my argument, if not all. In fact, I didn't say anything about Leona, Foen did!
ReplyDeleteI didn't say anything about carry supports, Foen did!
The meta generally shifts via the LCS in which zyra, lulu and karma are the most picked supports (aside from thresh) not to mention Morgana who is the second most picked support alongside thresh 'all in' supports like I said are dying off
ReplyDeleteI'm not as fun to respond to, apparently! Haha
ReplyDeleteNo it does not just shift towards LCS. Otherwise Kog'Maw would've made a comeback ages ago.
ReplyDeleteNo support is dying off. Leona hasn't changed, if at all she's still a fantastic support. KARMA ISN'T EVEN PICKED OFTEN. 8.58%, and you're forgetting about mid Karma. Lulu is 10%, and you're forgetting about mid lulu.
In the post itself leona is listed as a god like support hence I brought up leona and in regards to not reading your comment at no point did I reference your comment ergo your comment has no relevance as to mine
ReplyDeleteYou said Leona was dying off to counter my argument, even though I never mentioned her, and it was apparent that Foen had said it, not me.
ReplyDeleteYou were replying to me stupidly regarding him instead of me.
First of all I didn't see it shifts JUST from the LCS I said generally, secondly I said they will be making a comeback future tense as in it will only just happen due to the high pick rate from LCS, that's my opinion and I can't be arsed to argue this post is fucking retarded. Bye
ReplyDeleteYou ignorantly assumed that this was the name of my LoL profile which it's not, and you've been playing since season 1 and you're only gold that's tragic mate. This isn't about LoL anymore it's just you trying to compare dicks with me and a really can't be arsed. I've said bye already 10 times but this time I mean it ly bye xxx
ReplyDeleteHe's still really good. Morg is super popular right now though, so he has a bit more trouble nowadays. His move down was mostly win rate based.
ReplyDeleteI thought you left!
ReplyDeleteI'm gold because Season 4 just started... There's a ranked refresh, mate.
Oh, look, signing off again, with x's this time.
You obviously haven't asked my previous ranks in Season 3, but I'll tell you.
DIAMOND.
It's called a ranked refresh.
The only thing I will say about him is you do need a little time to set up as him before ganks and teamfights so you can either A) One shot with triple Qs B) Heal yourself for now ridiculous amounts or C) Have a 1000 Range skillshot snare, lthough this isn't all that hard. Also as you're going to be diving into carries as him build one or two defencive items so you can survive the teamfight, Randuins is especially good if you're not confident on your one shotting ability but if you are sunfire will help with camp clearing and adds aoe damage. Spirit Visage is a must as it boosts the healing from his empowered W which goes from a decent amount to holy crap I just healed myself almost 3/4 of my health.
ReplyDeleteJust keep on top of your ferocity and he can be one of the deadilest duellers in all stages of the game
On Tristana it depends on how well you can farm early and work around resets (Her rocket jump) despite being a hyper carry she can really work off ganks and support engages. EG. Thresh lands a hook and flays them backwards, you AA him until he A) Flashes or B) gets out of range, you then jump after them, ignite, explosive shot, kill, jump out again off of the reset.
ReplyDeleteBut her early game damage isn't the best and she is outshone in this area by the likes of MF, Lucian and Draven and most other adcs (bar Kog Maw and Ashe maybe) as she has next to no poke until late game where she gets the longest AA range out of all champs I believe (702) and has no burst or fast attack speed until she gets items and kills . But if you are looking on one of the deadliest late game carries who has great mobility and can easily convert off of engages then Trist is perfect
I wouldn't say Triforce is very core. Although I do get it if I'm planning on going damage.
ReplyDeleteIt really depends whether or not I'm going damage or tank according to my team, as if I'm tanking, I almost immediately grab Golem with a Locket, and then Mob/Tabi/Merc boots, and then the rest of the build is situational, usually grabbing either Iceborn or Thornmail for armor, Visage for MR, and Randuin's (which is a necessity).
As for if I'm going damage bruiser, I go Lizard, like you say, and I get Triforce right after. I then either get Tabi and grab a Maw or Merc and grab a Cleaver. However, most of the time, I end up with Tabi and a Maw, and a Cleaver anyway. Guardian Angel is a necessity that I absolutely recommend as a 6th item if you're a bruiser, but I don't recommend it beforehand, but definitely as my 6th item.
She's a jack of all trades that can really go either way. My most common build, however, is Lizard, Tabi, Maw, Cleaver, Trinity, and either Locket or GA depending on how much armor I need.
yea, grammar error, my bad
ReplyDeleteI'm glad to see Panth is tier 1 top now! Might be too hopeful, but it'd be cool if it was my post that made you re-evaluate it!
ReplyDeleteThats not my username as in my real game, my username is mirajj and we switch usernames on lol websites for the fun on it, granted he thinks vlad is shit yet does well with him idk, but my experience is from solo que games. As is true in this game, most arguments are subjective not objective, stats alone dont bring enough for 100% of an argument. So yeah its biased, isnt all arguments for a champ have at least some in it?
ReplyDeleteYou dont need to be a mean person about it either, going for personal insults about a person in a chat section of a league tier list. I'd imagine that the community would have some civility, let alone for your "diamond" status that you are, shameful. Also how does an aoe nuke that amplifys 12% of your entire teams output make him bad for teamfights?
I'm not saying hes a god tier champ let alone above tier 2 right now, but he should be risen above his current spot right now, hes very solid for what he does, especially in bronze-gold.
Neither is your spelling.
ReplyDeleteOn a side note, Poppy could easily be placed higher than Vlad. She scales well, has nice burst, has strong team fight presence, and is arguably the best tower diver in the game thanks to her ult.
ReplyDeleteActually, you should do ignite and flash. Barrier, Teleport, and Ghost are also good too.
ReplyDeleteHeal: You should be already getting sustain from your passive, and heal is actually better for bot lane when 2 people can benefit. If you really want to play it safe, Barrier would be a better choice.
Exhaust: While good for duels and chasing, Ignite adds that secure and that bit of extra damage. Not too bad of a choice though.
So you're level 1 or level 3? Take your pick.
ReplyDeleteNo, not all arguments are biased, which is why you've "lost". I'm speaking from experience, who has actually played Vlad in the past, and knows how bad he actually is.
Arguments should never be subjective, it leads to too much conjecture which is a BS argument to start with.
I'm not going to give civility to someone who assumes that vlad is good without playing him. Are you just going to ignore the rest and focus on his AoE nuke that has a long CD and actually hurts him in the end of teamfights?
And I'm arguing that Vlad shouldn't be even close to Tier 2, if at all Tier 3, or have you not been looking at the argument the past time?
I get that you want him higher in Tier 2, but we, the community (and your friend apparantly), think better.
So uh, thresh not god tier support?
ReplyDeleteAnyone have explanation? I'm legitimately curious
Look at conversations below.
ReplyDeleteMost Vi players don't build lifesteal. She does so much burst damage and armor shredding, with a ton of tankines. It's not usually needed. If you do get sustain, I'd suggest BORTK or BT. I usually just get lizard and then brutalizer, or if I'm doing super well, Trinity. Trinity is so core, you could have no other damage item. And still rape someone.
ReplyDeleteFor Xin Zhao. Offensive he pretty much only needs trinity and BORTK. Other good offensive are Youmuus Ghostblade and sometimes Hydra. For top Summoners is flash, and then a choice of ignite or heal. I've seen a few ghost with ignite, but haven't seen it a lot. Could work.
ReplyDeleteHer range. It's countered by pretty much everyone. and most popular adc's do a lot of burst damage, she is strong in a little bit longer of a fight. Which is why attack speed is so core on her, to proc the passive for silver bolts more to help meet up with the burst people.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with the win rate thinking. and that of the positioning. But win rates are affected by all tiers, even those of a low tier. Udyr is strong, he is versatile and can slip into the team comp as a tank or a heavy fighter. Yes, he is kited very easily. I agree with that to the fullest extent. I think this tier list is going to be influenced by observing people who have played a champion multiple times, and in the different team comps, in order to decide. which is why Udyr is in the middle of the list in the tier 1. maybe. Very good argument tho Shadow.
ReplyDelete1. I haven't seen her much since the nerfs, so I can't say.
ReplyDelete2. Hecarim, Maybe tier 2. He's not a bad jungler, maybe not as good as others, but he is still pretty good. Which is what this tier list is about, the few who play him know what he can do well. The ult is still good, not as good as it used to be though.
3. Agreed, only his ult is strong and that's timing. He should be tier 2, maybe even 3.
4. Haven't seen her much, can't comment.
5. Probably because her few counters, hurt so much. and if you get caught slightly, it can cause her to get obliterated. Though, she may be god worthy material, if Nid can make it, so can she.
6. He's still pretty squishy, with the way most build him, and some are trying to understand how to cope with the ult speed and how the passive builds after it ends. He should get to god tier soon though.
7. Agreed. Completely. She is strong and very versatile in how you can build her, to meet the demand of your team comp, and the enemy's.
8. His laning can be iffy at times, he shines most in team fights. I don't see many good yasuos in lane so I can't say much.
9. He may be tier 1 due to his superior early, and his late fall off, unless you know how to use him correctly, also with the changes made to his Safeguard.
10. Why not MF? I agree with moving up twitch, by why should MF be dropped? She seems pretty strong and can do much burst. and her ult is strong.
11. Haven't seen him that much, can't say.
12. Where do you suggest we put her in the tier list?
Lee Sin has a much higher skill cap and can fall off more than Xin zhao.
ReplyDeleteI would like to highlight a kassadin build that ive been messing around with that should be tested more by other players so i could get some insight on changes.
ReplyDeleteMainly a mana stacking kassadin with a ton of utility that finds ways to still get 500 ap late game. Archangels Staff, ROA,Gauntlets,merc treads (i prefer, ive been running to many teams with heave cc as of late),zhonyas, and filler Though a cdr item that helps reach the 40% cdr asap, atheenes ive been messing around with.
The build is mainly used as a anti caster kassadin that once you get a few items helps you negate almost all of an enemy ap mid laners damage, you not only get many ways to stay alive via cdr reduced riftwalks, but also a gigantic sheild and zhonyas to boot allowing a much more safer dive and persistent pursuit of the most fed/squishy enemy.
You get not only tanky but still have enough damage to be an actual threat to enemys even though you're lacking in magic pen and super high raw ap numbers, but i find balances out in utility and more team beneficiary. It feels like a blue build ezreal or lulu mid formed into an ap assassin.
Would love to hear anyone elses thoughts on the build after either playing it a few times or if you've played it yourself...once again kassadin finds a way to be broken.
P.S. this is a build I came up with without any prior knowledge of anyone elses making, if someone has highlighted a very similar build or has a guide of it elsewhere I am unaware of its making.
He does do well both, jungle is much better, as his kill potential on squishy champs is very strong. Flare is good if you pick up early kills and you know you can farm it and get it effectively, otherwise, Lizard is very strong and good pick.
ReplyDeleteThing on Lee Sin though, is the difficulty of his kick. It is one of the harder things to master on him. Timing and utility wise
ReplyDelete