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Jun 22, 2014

Patch 4.10 Analysis


Hey everyone, I know you're all anxiously awaiting the new tier list for Patch 4.10, but as we wait for the numbers to flow in from actual play time statistics, let's take a look at the changes thus far!

Nerfs: Leblanc, Lucian, Pantheon, Twitch
Buffs: Skarner, Galio, Gragas, Sivir, Tristana
Tweaks: Nidalee

Full 4.10 Patch Notes

This time around, we're going to take a look at the


Skarner [Likely moving up to God Tier Jungler]
This guy's become one seriously broken champion with his rework, and I'm not only expecting his win rate to skyrocket in solo queue, but in the professional scene as well. His new kit offers him a ton of utility and a lot more constant pressure than ever before. Expect to see a lot of him soon if you haven't already.

Galio [Likely similar to where he is now, but significantly stronger]
His magic resist buff definitely gives him a sizable edge up in trades between himself and other mages, but I don't think he'll get too much attention just from this. His offensive skills will also be enhanced via his passive, but as I already have him pretty high already, he'll likely only jump a couple places.

Gragas [Likely staying near where he is]
His changes will definitely help him in certain situations, but I don't think it'll be enough to satisfy a significant jump.

Sivir [Similar placement] - Minor changes

Tristana [Similar placement] - AP Tristana improved slightly, AD Tristana situational improvement


Nerfin' Time

Leblanc [Mid lane moving down, support may be removed]
The removal of her silence greatly diminishes a lot of her supporting potential. As a straight-forward champion killer she's still strong, but her margin of error has been greatly reduced.

Lucian [Moving Down to Tier 1] - The item changes (covered below) along with his nerf on his poke definitely hurt him significantly. As his main power comes from the fact that he gets an attack reset from his spells, with the increased attack speed on items overall, this advantage is starting to be phased out.

Pantheon [Staying the Same] - Abuse of his bug that they fixed likely only occurred at higher Elos where people even knew about it, and as such won't affect much except for some hidden potential that we never knew about.

Twitch [Moving Down, likely to Tier 2] - Huge nerfs on the rat all around, 6 seconds on stealth is more than enough time for him to die.


Nidalee Tweak

I can see the jungle Nidalees come pouring's a bit early to tell, but I'm pretty sure jungle Nidalee is going to be a fad and won't be a "thing" any time soon, but I may eat my words.

As for AP Nidalee, I think she's much much weaker, as the enemy team will have more time to engage since the missile width reduction will reduce the accuracy of her poke.


Item Analysis

There are a ton of item changes this patch, so let's just go over them briefly:

Essence Reaver -  Definitely an interesting item, and I can see it becoming super popular on champions like Ezreal and Jayce.

Doran's Blade - This change is fairly interesting, and I think that we'll see a bigger shift back from lifesteal quints to flat AD quints along with multiple doran blades again.

Vampiric Scepter/Bilgwater Cutlass - Lifesteal nerfs, long time coming, but will affect AD based champions equally.

Blade of the Ruined King - Huge buff for the "stand and fight" champions and a nerf for the kiting champions. Kog'maw's definitely getting a huge jump on this one; I don't know about Vayne though as she fits more in the outplay category.

Bloodthirster - Not a terrible item, but Infinity Edge is probably a much better buy now.

Attack Speed Boosts/Randuin Nerfs: While ADC are definitely benefiting from these, a lot of top laners are probably going to get buffed as well. The power is shifting away from mid lane, and we may see a return of AD mids soon.

Ardent Censer - This item is really good for the price.

Mikael's Crucible - This item seems too expensive for what it does now, and isn't really worth the money anymore.

Athene's Unholy Grail - A much needed nerf with the homogeneous nature of mid laners, I think it's still a buy though.

Agree/Disagree? Think there's something important that I missed? Comment below!

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  1. DarthMoraJune 22, 2014

    can you eloborate on jungle nid?? makes me real excited lol

  2. SquirrelNutkinsJune 22, 2014

    Good analysis, although skarner god tier sounds incredibly generous. Specific build or something?

  3. I agree that Nidalee jungle is a fad. I have seen it many times since patch release, but from my experience having her on my team, she is not a great pick as a jungler, especially compared to the others on the current scene. She doesn't offer much in terms of utility, as you mention, her poke is much less reliable with the reduction of the missile width, and something that I really think brings it down is the removal of armor/mr bonuses and movespeed in cougar form.

    I did try her out in a custom when the patch was released. I played her as AP and I have to say, the changes almost felt like a buff. People always underestimate the damage on her traps, and I feel that the %health dmg they have now will continue to shred away hp that your opponent won't expect. Spear poke is still incredibly chunky, and I see the missile width as a nerf at low skill levels (harder to land) and a buff at higher skill levels (now you can launch them between minions -- it's more precise). That, and, hunt adds a nice boost to cougar damage and good damage followup to capitalize on your landed spells Q, W. In addition to that, access to cougar form at level 1 gives her something she was always lacking: pre-6 farm.

  4. Trust me It's gonna be like Soraka top. Gimmicky and very situational.

  5. TonyTheLiger1412June 23, 2014

    What about AD top nid? Rushed trinity force makes her very powerful.

  6. GrandpaEarsJune 23, 2014

    It's great to use lifesteal quints again! I'm an ADC main and while I hated the changes originally, I'm a fan now. Just buy BOTRK instead of BT (like 4th item usually) and get 1-2 dorans and 2 lifesteal quints to sustain up until then.

  7. RundownmonkeyJune 23, 2014

    As a lover of the scorpion this update makes me happy

  8. DanieLegendJune 23, 2014

    I don't think that Lucian deserves Tier 1 for that little nerf.

  9. Strongly disagree on the suggested change to Lucian. The hit to his W is a love tap at best (that's what, 6 DPS that you're losing at max rank?), and the item changes are beneficial - he's able to make excellent use of both Crit chance because of his passive (Zeal and IE were buffed), as well as Attack Speed because of his ultimate (Zerk Greaves, the aforementioned Zeal), and becomes even better at kiting with the nerf to Randuin's. The changes to BotRK are also excellent on him because of the synergy between the item and his passive/ultimate, and the introduction of Essence Reaver opens up the possibility of an effective CDR build a la blue build Ezreal.

    I will be astonished if he ends up as anything other than the best ADC on 4.10.

  10. ?

    Solo lane Soraka was absurdly powerful.

  11. Agreed on almost all points. Still think that Twitchs stealth nerf was fine but the base damage and poison was too harsh. He can't even trade now.

  12. MrNiceGuyJune 23, 2014

    Lucian still god tier the nerfs dont affect him a lot, twitch still tier one as he is really strong with the item changes especially late game, skarner broken(time to spam him), rest are okay.

  13. MrNiceGuyJune 23, 2014

    Sotel, randuins, iceborn gauntlet/Er/botrk(although i find Er 2 muchof extreme choice), sunfire cape/banshee's veil(depends if enemy team is relied on ap damage or ad) another damage item from the 3 i refered or a tanky item like the 2 i refered xD(depends on your role, if u are going to carry go for a damage item, otherwise a tank item would be a better choice),

  14. I main orianna and against any AP mids its still almost a must unless youre against someone safe enough to build tear, but still the benefits from Athenes is still nice.

  15. Oh God if you search Skarner in LoLking you'll see his win rate and ban rate rising :O ^^

  16. ShadowSectJune 23, 2014

    His win rate is already Tier 1 status O.O

  17. I doubt many people like playing against or alongside a champ they're not familiar with. I'd give a few weeks for the dust to settle before trying to read to much into it.

  18. The Athene's nerf is gonna hurt Galio.

  19. Josh HackerJune 23, 2014

    ok, i've read three poss and two have disagreed with the lucian drop, and what they don't understand is that it's a mixture of things dorping him to tier 1, it's the buff to attack speed items along with the nerf, becasue his passive resets his AA timer, giving him way more attacks than the enemy champs, but with the buff to attack speed items the benefit that lucian gets from his passive is not as large as before on top of losing dmg to his w

  20. KingoftheSocksJune 23, 2014

    Galio-RIP any ap mid laners, Galio became even more unkillable, might at a stretch go very bottom God Tier but most likely very high Tier 1
    Skarner- Can now gank even if the lane is pushed up to the opponents turret if he's good with the flash ult, plus the synergy with WW top is intense, but most Top laners can easily wombo with Skarner now. God Tier, maybe even Amumu level

    Jayce+Ezreal+ any ad caster with mana problems- I reckon they'll jump to tier one now, a ER rush on Jayce sounds deadly, Ezreal now needs not worry about repeated Arcane Shifts and Yorick if goes muramane+ER might not ever run out of mana, but a lone ER + lots of tank stats+Yorick ult, will he ever die?

    LeBlanc- Tier 2, I feel like without the silence she can't stop the high tier mid laners from escaping her burst, Ziggs can now satchel freely, Kassa can Riftwalk away, even Ryze can W her and pop his ult to run away. But the extra damage means that those without a good escape can be bursted down more easily (Nidalee for example)

    Lucian-Bottom God Tier-High Tier 1- He'll lose early game damage but he'll hardly notice it late, now it might be an idea to max e 2nd to lower the mana cost and cd. Q+aa+e+aa sounds like the new lucian early combo now but I'm not an ADC main so I don't play him much so other people may have a better idea.

    Twitch- Tier 2. 6 Seconds to stealth, late game tanks can be shredded down quicker than that, if Twitch gets caught he is dead now, but again not an adc main so his late game may just keep him T1, but his stealth will now take an age to activate and for junglers that's all the time they need.

    Kog and Vayne will move to T1 I think with the new Bork changes, Kog especially with his unbeatable range. Ashe + Varus could now feel safer building BT as it gives them a nice shield, Ashe could climb a little now but who knows

    Seeing as most AP laners use the Athenes no one will drop tiers

  21. Lucian scales better with Attack Speed than most ADCs.

    Oh, and btw, Lucian's passive isn't an AA reset. It makes your next *one* attack deal bonus damage that can crit and applies on-hit effects twice. It doesn't actually let you attack twice very quickly.

    He still has great burst, one of the best escapes in the game, an amazing passive, and a long range ultimate with stupidly high damage and scaling and a comically short cooldown. They could have removed AD scaling on his W altogether and it wouldn't be significant.

  22. You're mixing up your analysis of Lucian. Riot nerfed his *bonus* AD ratio - early game, you're losing ~5-6 damage on your W, while late game you're losing ~60. You're kinda right though, in that he'll hardly notice it *ever* regardless.

  23. KingoftheSocksJune 23, 2014

    Oh okay must have misread that, point still stands, he'll probably not notice the difference

  24. MrNiceGuyJune 23, 2014

    But I included oriana o.O, also i forgot to say that in some cases it's better if u build morrellonomicon than athene's. Also tear isn't bad.

  25. MrNiceGuyJune 23, 2014

    Galio will be the next gragas. Mark my words.But for now he most likely stay where he is. Also even tho the trading potential of twitch has been reduced, his late game is still really strong. The IE/PD buffs will make him thrive and it seems that the new bortk kinda suits him.

  26. GrandpaEarsJune 23, 2014

    Okay I'm confused about all the Lucian comments saying he's still god tier. Lucian will definitely be dropping to mid tier 1 at best, I'd say on par with Ezreal. The BT change is a big deal and directly nerfs his mid-game damage, which is what makes him good now. At the same time, IE and the AS items have been buffed and while he may scale -okay- with attack speed, he is no Caitlyn (his aa range is the same as Vayne's as well, btw).

    Oh and I'm sure other adc mains are going to be using lifesteal quints with 1-2 dorans and as sustain lanes become stronger, his early game poke will be less relevant. That weaker early game combined with a significantly weaker mid game and a weak late game compared to cait/trist/kog/twitch/vayne means Lucian is no longer a good pick. I do look forward to pwning all the deniers in soloq though.

    As of now if you want poke: Cait/Ezreal
    If you want all-in: Graves
    If you want mid-game damage: Graves, Miss Fortune

    Long live Caitlyn as the bread & butter ADC yet again!

  27. MrNiceGuyJune 23, 2014

    Well Othesemo analysed the changes to Lucian perfectly. Hisr/ passived will be really strong with the AS buffs and also IE buffs. His burst will be top-notch for another patch. Also, the new Botrk will make him even more powerful. Btw, ez will be tier 3 adc for another patch, this champion needs buffs, otherwise i dont see any change to where he is, especially now with the AS buffs(smthing that doesn't even benefit ez) he'll be even lower. Graves another adc which will be lowered. Bt canges doesnt benefit him at all. His AA range isn't even good to keep the overheal on. I can agree with you only for cait. AD casters have been nerfed, not buffed(except lucian and jayce)

  28. GrandpaEarsJune 23, 2014

    Graves is a lot weaker. I rarely play him now and stopped playing Lucian almost completely. I thought the same thing with Ezreal but after playing him a while I think he's actually stronger now, though it does feel weird not to rush a BT.

  29. KingoftheSocksJune 23, 2014

    Actually Bt on Graves might be the new big thing on him, attached to his passive and the fact he's pretty tanky for and adc already he'll be pretty hard to deal with

  30. GrandpaEarsJune 23, 2014

    That's a good point with his passive. I just feel like the loss of raw AD hurts him too much as a caster. I put him as a top-tier all-in champion, but I think the all-in bot lane is going to be much more rare now.

  31. MrNiceGuyJune 23, 2014

    Bt changes purely don't fit him at all. Graves is an adc based on how much PURE ad he has. The more the better as all of his abilities have ad ratios. What was better than an old bt to him early game with +100 ad?(fully stacked). He could one-shot everyone in bot lane. Now he can't. Bt is more expensive and LESS attractive to him early on. It maybe gives him more sustain, but not his old all in potential.

  32. MrNiceGuyJune 23, 2014

    Actaully nope. With the increases on Nami/Zyra i think poke lanes are on a rise again. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe ADCs which scale with AS are buffed significantly. We'll defintly see more poke lanes than all in lanes now.

  33. Marko CasualJune 23, 2014

    Skarner no. 1 jungler?

  34. MrNiceGuyJune 23, 2014

    Just saw u had placed "rare" so u are defintly right on this one. But lucian is a really good poke champion tho.

  35. MrNiceGuyJune 23, 2014

    The posts on the NA forums were really weird tho. Most ppl considered the changes as "nerfs" than buffs and they were comaplaining and flaming rito. I played him b4 the changes and after and i think these changes are HUGE BUFFS to him. So he should be God tier in the next list.

  36. Just played him, and he is honestly a hyper carry. And is even good when you're team is behind because you can press R and make the fed person useless and an easy target for a good amount of time

  37. GrandpaEarsJune 23, 2014

    Yes, and we're going to see a skyrocket in sustain lanes.

  38. Justin MiousseJune 23, 2014

    Permabanning Skarner now I guess. This reminds me of just banning everything with hooks in soloq (Thresh, Blitz, Naut(Shouldn't he be better now?), Mummy, Skarner) and then Kassadin because it's kassadin.

    Galio is really strong again. Counters Leblanc alllll day. Haven't figured out what the mid-lane meta will look like now with all the changes lately.

    Top is also a lot different, with the Jungle changes lately, and the Bruiser builds coming back into play. I really think AP top is terrible unless you can survive a hook, and even then. Vlad and Kennen barely survive anymore. Riven should be amazing again.

  39. cirroalexJune 23, 2014

    I'll be really disappointed if Kog'Maw is not moved up to Tier 1 after this patch. He's really been Tier 1 for a while now, being in the top 5 win rates of adcs for some time now. His previous buffs (especially the removal of mana cost on his W) went unnoticed, but he's really strong at the moment. The botrk change now really favors him even more. The amount of health he shreds with just that one item and his w is insane. Now, he is not far behind Miss Fortune in highest win rate amongst all adcs.

  40. GrandpaEarsJune 23, 2014

    The best ADC will almost undoubtedly be Caitlyn.

  41. Timmy KuecherJune 23, 2014

    Galio support should be considered to higher placement also with Ardent Censer. Just think about it.....

  42. The current top lane Soraka.

  43. Someone please explain what makes Skarner so good all of a sudden. Nothing looks OP about the update.

  44. Look at lolking and you will see skarners winratio rising alot, its already at above 53%!

  45. Josh HackerJune 24, 2014

    ok, i honestly have never played lucian and wasn' trying to sound like i knew him, only whati had heard about him, and even so, removing that dmg still affects him a bit. honestly the real test will be seeing who uses the new items best. idk what lucain needs most because idon't use him, but i feel like the new BT could help protect from burst adcs like lucain with it's new passive. i'm honestly not sure what else to say, and i'll probably coem back to this in a few days when im' not sick and can think straight.

  46. Ah, that makes much more sense.

  47. Now that would be interesting. The difficulty with Caitlyn, in my eyes, is the lack of a steroid (other than standing in a bush), which causes her to fall off relative to other ADCs in the mid game. She's obviously a fantastic lane bully, and 6 item cait is terrifying, but before you get to the point where you're getting IE crit headshots every three seconds, you just don't deal very much damage compared to someone like Graves.

    I suppose that doesn't really matter if you're able to get a sufficiently sizable lead in lane, but that seems like a risky thing to rely on.

  48. MrNiceGuyJune 24, 2014

    Caitlyn is also really good in controlling objectives bc of her ridiculous AA range. Pushing towers, taking dragons(traps play a huge role on this one) is what cait does best. But apart from that and the fact that she had really good mobility, cait has really big poke damage. Finally, bt/ie/pd/bs changes fits her a lot making really strong not only in lane but also later on. My point is that, even if she falls. she useful at many other things. I expect her god tier in 4.10 soloQ tier list.

  49. MrNiceGuyJune 24, 2014

    I actually wanted to point out the fact that she ain't risky pick at all. You are right in most part.

  50. She's risky for the same reason Renekton is risky. There's a period in the game when your counterpart will most likely outclass you in every significant metric, and if you don't hit that period with a sizable lead, you'll be something of a liability to your team. Not that it was inappropriate for Renekton to be god-tier a few patches ago, but it's something to consider.

  51. ^this. I played a game yesterday as Skarner and had two people drop, I was able to carry the game for almost 50 minutes before we lost. I had 32 kills. He's ridicuously powerful now

  52. The nice thing about Lucian's kit is that it synergizes with virtually every ADC stat. If on hit items are brokenly powerful, Lucian's passive gives him extra procs. If BT gives way too much AD for one item, Lucian's ratios are really good. If attack speed is stupid cheap, his ultimate deals hilarious amounts of damage. If crit chance and crit damage are too accessible, his passive damage gets multiplied. I'm having a hard time imagining a state of ADC itemization that wouldn't benefit him to some degree.

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  54. Christian PhamJune 24, 2014

    Twitch will still be godly with the youmoos buff. it is now the age of the auto attack hyper carries (Cait, Twitch, Tristana)

  55. ShadowSectJune 24, 2014

    3 phrases.
    More utility.
    Lower CDs.
    More damage.

  56. ShadowSectJune 24, 2014

    I need to point out what win rates have just gone up and gone down.
    Skarner (went to 54)
    Janna (went to 53)
    Heimerdinger (went back up to its former glory of 54)
    Rumble (went up to 53)
    Tristana (went up to 53)
    Twitch (went down to 45)
    Taric (went down to 50)
    Lucian (went down to 49)
    Ryze (went down to 50)
    Karthus (went down to 49, and his ban rate dropped substantially)

  57. It's mostly due to the new passive of a stacking stun.

    Before, he was a fairly good duelist with BORK or Iceborn. Supposedly, he's really strong now. I haven't tried him yet but I'm looking up guides and we could see him as a FOTM status this patch.

  58. CamochampJune 24, 2014

    Umm...Lucian's passive is TWO auto attacks...thats why you can kill two minions with it...or attack two different people.

  59. Taric4lyfeJune 24, 2014

    Youmuus is one of the more unpopular items on him, its about 12% now. The drop in winrate is likely just people adapting to the new playstyle which almost requires Youmuus which is not just good for engaging but also running away. Its too early too tell really. its kind of like Eve, new playstyles will emerge and they might be of similair strength.

  60. Timmy KuecherJune 24, 2014

    False. Karma top is VERY viable.

  61. See, this is very difficult to phrase in a way that isn't deceptive. Let me try.

    Lightslinger is an on-effect that causes your next *one* auto attack to deal bonus damage that can crit and applies on-hit effects (with the exception of expiring on-hit effects like Spellblade or Tidecaller's Blessing). The bonus damage procs effects that block or mitigate auto attacks, such as counterstrike.

    You are not able to direct the 'second shot' differently, as you would be able to direct a true second auto attack - it automatically hits the person you attacked first, or failing that, a nearby enemy which is determined by the game. Also, the 'second shot' does not have a cast animation - it takes no longer to use a lightslinger auto than a regular auto, again unlike a true second auto attack.

    Lucian's main strength does not come from the fact that he gets an attack *reset* on his spells, because he doesn't. The changes to attack speed literally do not have an impact on his passive.

  62. heraquatfJune 25, 2014

    I strongly disagee with you saying twitch is weaker now. In fact he's stronger. He's left unaffected by the huge bt rush nerf, and the youmuus buff is even better for him. Doublelift's opinion : "probably the strongest adc in 4.10"

  63. everyone is saying he does more damage, but in the patch notes all aspects of his damage were horrifically nerfed, but ratios and base damages being cut down to almost a half. sow here is all this damage coming from?

  64. ShadowSectJune 25, 2014

    His stacking stun
    *drops mic*

  65. Well the way you phrased it; (maybe orianna) made it sound like you didnt think it was necessary. And yes Morrello is pretty okay on her if youre facing someone like swain or someone who doesnt do a huge amount of Magic damage such as leblanc. (even though the MR was reduced it still helps a lot!)

  66. calico jonesJune 25, 2014

    Not sure where I read in on this post, but I think BT works much better with bruisers now, as well. I've been running it on Xin and it practically makes him unkillable, as it stacks with his W. Any thoughts on other champs it has buffed?

  67. calico jonesJune 25, 2014

    Well, for whatever reason, I've been winning a lot of games running it on Xin. I rarely used Hydra on him, so I might take your advice and give it another shot if I'm running higher damage than tankiness

  68. AwkwardMovementsJune 25, 2014

    No, it shouldn't. Even if Galio puts his shield on a teammate, he is still the one that is healed. Ardent Censer would be pretty much useless on him.

  69. AwkwardMovementsJune 25, 2014

    That's why they buffed his MR/level.

  70. KingoftheSocksJune 25, 2014

    But that 6 second stealth, poison nerf is meh but setiously 6 seconds is ages. Twitch arguably lost his escape.
    Don't get me wrong his late game is insane not to mention very versatile but 6 seconds. I can't say he'll be the best with thst long to stealth.

    After playing around with Trist Kog and Vayne they all feel God Tier to me as well as Caitlyn. The Bork now just gives them everything they want

  71. Galio shield doesnt work with AC. Much like Braum's W, doesnt give you a "shield", technically speaking, but and Ar/MR buff.

  72. is it worth picking him up then?

  73. ShadowSectJune 26, 2014

    First off, that's a pro.
    Second off, his build didn't change, but his stealth and his damage nerf was significant, and there is less hope for his late game now.

  74. rainy1314emily .June 26, 2014

    I am anticipating some Karma "tweaks" or rather nerfs in one/two patches. She is fine on her own, but with the introduction or Ardent Censer...

    Ladies and gentleman, if AP Karma gets nerfed as a result of SP Karma being too "stronk" with Ardent Censer, you know who to blame :D. Those in agreement with me say aye.

  75. Timmy KuecherJune 26, 2014

    no, nerf ardent censer who makes morgana karma nami and lulu op. not karma. karma is still tier 1 lol.

  76. Timmy KuecherJune 26, 2014

    shen support moving to higher tier 4 anyone? ardent censer pls

  77. Timmy KuecherJune 26, 2014

    also, even if jungle nid is a "fad", she's still should be included on the list if we have gangplank jungle. and imo, nid is better than gangplank.

  78. Doesn't work with him :S

  79. "makes morgana karma nami and lulu op. not karma." k.

  80. ShadowSectJune 26, 2014

    His ult is the only one that gives a shield, and even that's a waste.
    Also, in the meta of sustain supports, good luck with that.

  81. ShadowSectJune 26, 2014

    Nid jungle is a fad and is also eventually going to die out.
    GP jungle still happens.
    I still see it in Bronze for god's sake, and it's not actually dying out.
    And also, seriously stop upvoting your own comments. People are going to stop taking you seriously.

  82. ShadowSectJune 26, 2014

    2 problems with your argument:
    1. Morg, Nami, and Lulu are already op as ****, including their win rate and ban rate. If anything the ardent censer is targeting utility huge supports like Karma and Janna, which are rising as we speak.
    2. You contradicted yourself. You said censer makes karma op, and then said not Karma O.O

  83. ShadowSectJune 26, 2014

    That's doublelift, that's a pro, that's one person's opinion, and he's probably talking about the meta of LCS, which is very different.
    It's not the item nerf that's hurting him (although it actually is, and I'll get to that in a sec), it's his ACTUAL NERF.
    His base damage and passive damage was reduced (there goes some of his early trades), his time to enter stealth when not taking damage increased (not much, but ganks might be a little taxing), time to enter stealth when taking damage increased to 6 SECONDS FROM 3 SECONDS (Whoah there, there goes his late game potential).
    Not only is that a huge nerf, but now it's much easier to kill the rat because he can't get away in time! His escape mechanism is now a lot more situational and has to be used very very carefully.
    Now to the item nerfs. I don't really need to point here since Thresh's win rate is now 45% (the 2nd worst for an ADC), but almost all twitches get a BOTRK!
    Nobody ever rushed a bt with Thresh O.O. Most people get a Botrk and then Inf Edge, followed by LW and either Youmuus or PD.
    The active buff for Youmuus was really not that big, and now that Botrk is nerfed, Twitch is not having a fun time.
    But anyway, look at Twitch's win rate, and come back.

  84. ShadowSectJune 26, 2014

    No thanks.

  85. ShadowSectJune 26, 2014

    I dislike Galio support for many reasons, but first off: his farm is terrible since you're a support, which means you're not getting the items you need.
    It also means mana hunger, no sustain for the ADC (which is now wanted and Censer doesn't help him anyway because his shield doesn't give health, it gives MR and armor), his ult can be broken EASILY with the meta of supports being CC which he doesn't have much off, and his poke is hard to land while in lane.
    Also, most supports that don't have any CC at all (ult doesn't count) are just terrible supports...

  86. rainy1314emily .June 26, 2014

    I think what Timmy means is that among all SP Champions alone, Karma isn't necessarily the most OP. He forgot to include the fact that Ardent Censer will make Karma SP very strong atm.

    I see your point but as we all know it, Riot will never nerf an item because of "one champion". This is why I say Riot is losing their sense of logic and direction, they no longer know what they are doing with the game balance. They wanted to introduce an item like Ardent Censer to help SP with Shield abilities, but they forgot champions like Karma.

    Before we know it, Riot is probably going to go around saying "Oh, Karma is too strong now. We are probably gonna nerf her shield and MS, or "shift some of Q's power in to other abilities to make her versatile" shit". And I can tell you 100% now that Karma is a completely healthy champion whose strong point is versatility, in a healthy way. She doesn't carry as hard as a typical APC unless she gets ahead, but she is truly the very description of what mages are envisioned to be in LoL - "impacting teams with their versatile skill set".

    Again, Ardent Censer is going to the main thing that will ever cause Riot to launch some pointless nerfs towards Karma. Just like how the same case was with DFG Ahri, the changes and nerfs really killed Mage Ahris, but nobody realized she went FoTM because of a bloody DFG that made her so strong in Mid Lane. Instead, Riot justifies their nerf by saying she gets free damage from her W and Ult.

    And I notice how Riot has the tendency to nerf the Meta completely rather than to bring up another Meta. What I'm saying is, for an example, one or two patches back, the AP Mid meta fancied AP/SP who went AP Mid like Soraka and Lulu because they counter Assassins so well. Over here, Riot has two options..

    1) Give buff to Assassins to bring back some mid Assassins and bring a bit of versatility in champion pool and encourage different types of meta.


    2) Nerf AP/SP Mid who went AP Mid and further narrow down the meta. And then when some champions go FoTM. Riot plans a nerf patch right away.

    Riot took the not so smart way out. And I understand how Riot wants to encourage some versatile play style through items, but they're doing it wrongly. Almost any champions that benefits from the new items released lately gets nerfed. Sigh.

  87. do you have a build including runes/ masteries you could share? bit stuck at whats best at the moment xD

  88. Can you give me a link to the calcs for him losing 6 damage?

  89. ShadowSectJune 26, 2014

    Build (includes runes and masteries):
    Note: That build is missing 2 situational items which I will add here.
    Iceborn Gauntlet (instead of Thornmail): If you're doing really well before you get your Trinity and/or you're going against a team in which AD is not a big problem, get this first before Trinity so the unique passive only applies on this item and don't buy Thornmail.
    Feral Flare (instead of Elder Lizard): Just adding it because I've seen it half as often as Lizard. I personally think Elder Lizard works much better, but if you really need that Attack Speed and can afford to have no CDR, go for this. Just remember it'll be a while until the damage really kicks in.

  90. 1 AD quint, 9 AD marks - 11

    Brute Force and Martial Mastery - 14
    Doran's, IE, LW and BotRK - 152

    Then add 5% from Warlord

    185 bonus AD

    Ardent Blaze lost a 30% bonus AD ratio, or just over 55 damage with the above build. It also has a 10 second cooldown at max rank.

    55 Damage/10 seconds = 5.5 Damage/1 second that was lost.

    And then I rounded up to sound colloquial and shit.

  91. GrandpaEarsJune 26, 2014

    Doublelift also said they didn't change Twitch at all, so I'm thinking he missed that part of the patch notes and was just focused on the items. Notice he also didn't comment on the Tristana changes.

  92. GrandpaEarsJune 26, 2014

    Not true. You can build BT and hydra on Riven and it's silly.

  93. SquirrelNutkinsJune 26, 2014

    Haters gunna hate

  94. His late game is significantly stronger now. The nerfs primarily limit his ability to function as a lane bully and escape ganks - he's still stupidly powerful once he gets 1-2 completed items.

  95. Vlad and Kennen...?

    Obviously they can barely survive anymore. They're terrible. Try Ryze, Kayle or Lulu - let the other guy pick a bruiser, and laugh while you both win lane *and* outscale.

  96. Is it likely Skarner is so broken atm that he will be nerfed soon?

  97. ShadowSectJune 26, 2014

    How many times do I have to reference this before people start getting it?
    His win rate is 45% right now, the 2nd lowest in the game for an ADC, so not only is your argument hard to believe, it's really a flat out lie.
    How did his late game benefit? Twitch has always had a reliance on life steal, and the nerf to it makes it much worse.
    His base damage got nerfed and so did his stealth. That makes it EXPONENTIALLY easier to shut him out. How are items going to get you if enemies can still kill ridiculously easy?
    Also, Twitch has been known for his late game ambushes and his position changes in teamfights. With the stealth nerf it's harder to position and harder to ambush.
    When his win rate goes to around 49%, I'll start believing you.
    Until then, I doubt it.
    Even GrandpaEars saw something you missed: he was just talking about the item changes. He doesn't prove he's seen the damage and stealth nerfs >_>

  98. Twitch makes extremely good use of on-hit effects, since his Ultimate allows him to apply them at long range to multiple people per auto. As it happens, BotRK's on hit effect was buffed - it now deals 8% current health, from 5%.

    Now, percentage health damage naturally scales well into the late game, because people generally get more and more health as they level up and purchase items that give them health. Compare to flat on-hit damage like you get from Wit's End, which 'falls off' because it does progressively less damage relative to enemy's health as the latter statistic increases.

    So, Twitch's late game damage is better. But so is the late game damage of every other ADC that build Blade!, I hear you say. Well, as I mentioned earlier, Twitch's ultimate lets him apply *area of effect* on hit effects! I know it sounds remarkable, but if you're teamfighting with twitch, you could potentially be getting *five* whole BotRK procs per auto attack! That means any increase to the proc damage on BotRK is potentially up to five times as impactful when Twitch uses the item. Even if you only hit two or three people, you're still getting a ton of mileage from the item that other ADCs just can't compete with.

    So, we've got a champ who's primary damage item already scales well, who now gets even more of it! Sounds pretty fearsome, right?

    Well, I'm not even finished. Because Twitch's second favorite item, Yoummuu's Ghostblade, also got buffed! He now gets half again the duration on its active steroid, which lets him get *even more* procs on BotRK, be even harder to catch, and ambush people from even further away!

    So. That's how his late game benefited.

    I appreciate being called a liar, though.

  99. Dagannoth RexJune 26, 2014

    Just noticed that Viktor's win rate has jumped to 52% from 48%.

  100. ShadowSectJune 26, 2014

    How many times are you going to ignore my negatives?
    First off, let's talk about my repeated argument on his survivability. The damage all looks good on paper, but before that item, how well can he survive, and even with the item?
    The answer is not good.
    I already said he's almost out of an escape mechanism until late game, but I already said, Twitch has always been reliant on life steal. I didn't say anything about the ITEM damage, I was talking about the LIFE STEAL. Which was severely nerfed by the way.
    Not to mention, again, that it's hard to initiate a teamfight with a now mediocre stealth mechanic that I don't want to explain for the 3rd time!
    Also, you're still ignoring his win rate. With all this talk, it certainly should be higher.
    Beep beep, nope.
    Can you stop talking about conjecture and actually show me proof? I can.
    Watch videos of his teamfights now, even in LCS. He's TERRIBLE now even when fed.
    I said his positioning has gotten worse.
    Now could you stop ignoring my argument and stop changing the subject? You're certainly lying about him being the best, even with the fact that you forget about other ADCs who benefitted MASSIVELY by these changes such as Ezreal and Draven.
    Hey, twitch's win rate is 45%. Or did I already say that?

  101. So, I like statistics, and you mention the LCS. Since the beginning of the summer split of LCS, Twitch has 31 wins, 20 losses and 41 bans in competitive play throughout NA, EU and Korea. This is out of 110 games, giving him a competitive pick ban rate of just shy of 84%.

    So. That's a pretty bad example on your part, tbh.


    That out of the way, let me clarify what my position here, since it's certainly not what you're arguing with:

    I think that the buffs to BotRK and Ghostblade make his lategame teamfight a lot stronger.

    I do not care *at all* if Twitch is viable or not, or if Draven or whatever ADC you're on about benefited more from the itemization changes, or if he happens to like life steal. I don't care how much the hit to his base AD hurt his early laning. I don't care if people who try to initiate a teamfight with freakin' Twitch (seriously) die quickly. I particularly don't care about his win rate, because the statistic is bullshit and I kinda hate lolking for making it available to people who don't understand that.

    I just think that his lategame teamfight is stronger now.

  102. ShadowSectJune 26, 2014

    2 things:
    1. You're kidding me, right? I clearly meant after the recent patch O.O
    That's just stupidity right there.
    2. Excuse me if I'm not a "damage IS EVRYTING" guy, because you've been arguing laning this whole time and just now say his teamfights are better after I clearly showed you that's not the case?
    Also, win rates mean a lot. Disregarding them is being a Bronze, and even SSJ, squirrelnutkins, and Doublelift can tell you the same.

  103. wukong onlyJune 26, 2014

    yes you still can and its still extremely good on riven with the sheild helping a lot. I said most cant build it but riven always was able to build both at the same time. Since the sheild synergizes extremely well with riven it is still good to get after your hydra.

  104. 1. Ah, LCS after the recent patch. That would put him at, hmm... 0 picks, 1 bans. So, it's difficult for me to draw conclusions.

    2. So, here's quote of yours -

    "you've been arguing laning this whole time and just now say his teamfights are better"

    And here's what I said in my first post -

    "His late game is significantly stronger now. The nerfs primarily limit his ability to function as a lane bully"

    You will notice a startling disconnect between what you accuse me of saying and what I'm saying.

    And I don't really care what any of those people think, to be honest. No offense to the two of them that are actually liable to read this, of course, but I don't think names are appropriate replacements for thought.

  105. Afif WhykesJune 27, 2014

    Personally I think if you're going to go for a damage item on Skarner, go for Trinity Force. Yeah I know it's expensive but it's ridiculously good on him. Phage helps a lot with any kiting issues and low cooldown spells to proc Spellblade (which is calculated using base AD, of which Skarner has the most of any champion at level 18)

  106. SquirrelNutkinsJune 27, 2014

    I'm constantly checking his win rate to stay up to date on him because I find his power surge interesting. Granted there hasn't been enough time to judge too well, but as of now I'd say he belongs in Tier 1, top of it....his past week's win-rate is at a 53.21% and that's overall for all of ranked. That's very good, but I think he's very similar to Warwick (and in my personal opinion Warwick doesn't deserve god tier status). So high Tier 1 to me

  107. Arnold ChenJune 27, 2014

    Nidalee was lower than Urgot's win rate.

  108. thanks a lot :)

  109. Skarner could be, but keep in mind several tanky junglers are getting buffed next patch, such as Maokai. Others are getting indirectly buffed by the SotAG changes.

    He is very strong, but he has the following weaknesses - low TF initiation, weak early game, item dependent, out-dueled.

  110. Skarner has 3 methods of CC, and his ulti isn't channeled like WW's. He's much stronger than WW atm, but suffers from a similarly weak pre-6 early game.

    IMO, Skarner God, WW low Tier 1 or high Tier 2.

  111. ShadowSectJune 27, 2014

    Let me make this more clearer.


    The pros have been following win rate for a long time. Meteos looks at it, LPL follows it almost step by step, most if not all tier list put it as a factor (specifically, ReignofGaming, which used to be the most popular tier list, and metalol, which uses it as part of their algorithm, you can check that list out,

    By the way, SSJ is the one who makes the tier lists on this website, so that should actually matter somewhat O.O

    As reply to LCS, do you watch EU LCS, or even LPL? I know you shouldn't watch OGN (their meta is entirely different), but seriously, you're missing some big losses on Twitch's part.

    Twitch's teamfighting potential is terrible. As I've already said, damage is major, but so is positioning and survivability, both of which have been taken away from poor little Twitch.

    Anyway, just look at how much Twitch has fallen on metalol's algorithm:

  112. ShadowSectJune 27, 2014

    That comment deserves a follow XD

  113. I don't care about win rate.

    While I like and respect SSJ for putting in the effort to make these tier lists, I care about his opinions to the extent that he can convincingly argue for them (also applies to Meteos, Doublelift, and whomever else you happen to be buddies with).

    I watch every game of EULCS, NALCS and OGN, plus a few side tournaments and LPL when I'm bored. There were literally four games played on 4.10 as of yesterday, and none of them had twitch. I have no idea where you're getting these big losses.

    Ignoring that 'Twitch's teamfighting potential is terrible' is possibly the most outlandish statement I've read on this site - his teamfight is now *better* than it was. Which is my point.

    I neither know of, care about or trust metalol.

  114. ShadowSectJune 27, 2014

    Saying win rate does not matter is like saying "I won't take any evidence that goes against my argument." Whether you like it or not, Win Rate is a factor of figuring how strong a champion is. Riot uses it, and the people use it, and SSJ uses it.
    You just pointed out one statement I said about Twitch ignoring the next sentence, which is what you just said you don't do. Just look at what I said.
    I get that damage is major, but position and SURVIVABILITY HAVE BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM TWITCH.
    There goes his teamfighting potential.
    Now stop ignoring what I say.
    Also, in regards to metalol, that's just someone who is too lazy to look at something I mention.
    For all you know, you could've just ignored something that could piss of the community because of your comment, or it could invalidate your whole argument.
    And it's not my fault that you don't trust metalol, because clearly that site is smarter than you.

  115. Seriously though, win rate matters. Riot nerfs people because of high win rates, (however Riot does not buff because of low win rates). In the forums, Riot takes our argument seriously when we argue with specifics and most importantly, win rates. If i got 1 dollar for every person that said "Win Rate does not matter" on the forums and riot disagreed with that person, I'd be swimming in money.

  116. Don't smoke pot when saying karma. It seems you suffer from repetition under its effects.

  117. SquirrelNutkinsJune 27, 2014

    I agree, and that sounds about right. I believe top of tier 1 and god tier are pretty close, so I could see it. I wish I'd come across Skarner more in the matches I play. All this talk and I've still yet to see the damn champ in a match lol

  118. SquirrelNutkinsJune 27, 2014

    Don't listen to all these drug references and accusations Timmy. Be yourself

  119. Let me clarify - I don't care about win rate because we lack access to all of the significant information that informs it. If you tell me Twitch's win rate is super low, I'll think it's a kinda interesting detail and maybe I'll throw around some theories for why that might be, but I'm not gonna say "Oh shit, he must be awful now!" and just give up on thinking. Riot has an excuse - they're working from Riot servers, not lolking. I trust that the statistics they're using are actually complete, and that they actually have statisticians to break down the data for them.

    And again. I care about what you have to say to the extent that you can convincingly argue for it. "But [some dude] agrees with me!" is not convincing.

    Twitch's ability to position prior to fights with ambush has not been hindered because an extra quarter of a second spent in the fog of war means nothing. His ability to deal constant damage from 850 units away has not been hindered. The peel from Ghostblade has been buffed while the peel from BotRK has been nerfed - ultimately, little changes. And he deals more damage, which I think has much more impact on his teamfighting than the duration on your stealth if a Jax jumps on you.

    The name metalol means nothing to me. I'm judging it on its qualitative content - which is basically nothing. They apparently rehash lolking stats and use some sort of algorithm to translate those stats into a list. Which is cool, I guess, but it's not really informative or helpful.

  120. ShadowSectJune 27, 2014

    You're joking right? Now THAT'S degrading.
    Riot and lolking use the same data O.O
    Twitch was known for his position change. Extra seconds WHILE taking damage is huge.
    He also has less life steal, which means it's easier to kill the rat and shut him down.
    Metalol data doesn't come from lolking either! Metalol comes from the publically available databases given out by RIOT!
    What level of stupid town did you come from?

  121. SquirrelNutkinsJune 27, 2014

    I disagree, I think if Twitch's win rate is super low he's shit. You have to remember, these statistics are being pulled from thousands of matches. You're getting Twitch performances from noobs, average players, and amazing players. If he takes a huge hit in win-rate (assuming you've allowed enough time to pass to let the win-rates settle which is beginning to get there at this point), and that huge win-rate is considered significant (like a 2-5% drop off) then that means something. You can't simply brush it off, because what it means is that Twitches across the board are losing much more now.

  122. Just to clarify, are you suggesting that literally every relevant statistic in this game is publicly available? On lolking, no less?

    'Cause that would be a pretty interesting claim.

  123. Oh, it sure as hell means something. I just don't have access to the information that would let me say what it means.

    Like, hypothetical question - let's say there's a particular item build on Twitch that's monstrously powerful, but isn't currently well known or played (think Runaan's Hurricane on Kayle). In this hypothetical example, Twitch's are building poor, non-ideal builds that limit their DPS and survivability.

    Now, if those poorly built Twitches have a 45% win rate, does that make Twitch a poor champ? If literally no balance changes are made, but everyone figures out this new build and his win rate jumps up to 50%, is Twitch suddenly a better champion?

  124. I want to say two things.
    1. Your argument is pretty well-stated, yeah, maybe the stealth didn't get nerfed too hard, maybe he's just as good as he was a patch ago.
    2. Don't think lolking is a load of garbage. Riot complimented lolking's statistic data about 3 patches ago saying "Nice use of our statistic flow charts!" -Morello. Why did he say our statistics? Because lolking USES their statistics. If you believe in Riot's statistics then you have more reason to trust lolking's. However I do want to say that constant nerfs add up. Remember Kha'Zix? His nerf looked like it was little, now he has a lower win rate than Twitch. Nerfs STACK UP. Twitch is not what he used to be. Sure, if you're good at him, maybe you can work your way around the nerfs, but everyone else (hence tier list where everyone is at normal skill level) who just plays him at normal skill level WILL NOT. The Solo Queue tier list outlines how a person at SAME SKILL LEVEL will do. And since twitch is now very close to Urgot's win rate, he will lose in a lot of games.

  125. If we didn't have access to every relevant statistic about how champions are in a game, we wouldn't be able to trust anything Riot did to the statistics. This isn't a claim, it's a fact. We have every statistic from when the champion walks out of the champion pool to destroying the nexus.

  126. ShadowSectJune 27, 2014

    Are you still putting lolking as a negative, because it's one of the most widely used websites.
    Anyway, pretty much every one!
    Let's look at this.
    Lolking allows you to look at ANY active game with a summoner.
    With this information, can we assume that they have the statistic from EVERY game end?

  127. ShadowSectJune 27, 2014

    Win rates have an explanation. Win rates don't always mean the champion is bad but the build is good. That's not how you analyze a win rate.
    With those questions, yes, although I wouldn't think it would be so sudden. When a new build comes out that people have a look on later, and the win rate does come up, it certainly would show that. It would show that the ITEM BUILD is powerful and is bringing twitch up (also why we have win rates for each item Twitch has). Riot then usually focuses on those items and the champions using them and makes a deduction.

  128. So, here are a few suggestions for why Twitch might have a low win rate atm. Just spit balling, of course.

    1. He's legitimately bad now (just to get it out of the way)
    2. People are picking Twitch in non-ideal situations to test out his new changes.
    3. Twitch is a victim of poor itemization - people haven't yet figured out the ideal build for him on 4.10
    4. Twitch players are no longer familiar with lane matchups because of the aforementioned ADC changes - they're losing lanes they should win because they haven't had the time to learn the quirks of the new patch.
    5. Twitch is a victim of poor play - people haven't figured out his ideal play patterns, and are using him non-ideally. He'll do better once people figure out *how* he should be played - when he power spikes, when he should split push, when he should assassinate, which teams he can initiate against, which champs he needs to play differently against. All information people haven't had the chance to learn.

    Or a crap ton of other stuff. And you know what? I don't know if *any* of this stuff is true. I don't have the information to say for sure.

  129. ShadowSectJune 27, 2014

    And that's why you have experience with the items instead of going off conjecture.
    Now from the games I've had with Twitch in the past, I've only had 2 games, but both were from the point of a Twitch being on our team and actually falling out in teamfights. He didn't have enough life steal to sustain despite being fed and when he was focused he couldn't ambush out.
    As to your 1-5 points, that's where the deducting comes into play. So deduct which ones are true from experience.
    For me, 1 is wrong, as he's not really bad, but he's not as good as he WAS.
    2 I highly doubt except in Bronze and maybe Silver.
    3 doesn't seem right because the popular items do include Youmuus and his most popular item is Botrk.
    4 is just BS and that's just an assumption.
    5 may be true, but that could just be Bronze, and I don't think the WHOLE group of LoL players are playing him wrong.
    The answer is he's falling off in teamfights sometimes and he's not as good as he was.

  130. Stats for individual items can be deceptive. PD Shiv LW is a pretty bad build, even if all of those items are decent on their own. Nashor's Hurricane Deathcap Kayle is a pretty good build, even if Hurricane is pretty awful on its own.

    Part of what makes a champion good is their ability to make use of the items that exist. If a Champion *isn't* making use of the available itemization, through ignorance or tradition or for whatever reason, we can't judge that aspect of a champion's viability.

  131. I use 'We' to refer to us non-rioters. I don't doubt that Riot has access to absurdly extensive data on the game that they don't necessarily see fit to publish.

  132. Phrases like 'highly doubt' and 'may be true' are essentially my point. We can't say 'Absolutely not, and this is why.'

    Regarding 2, I would like to raise Karthus as an example of this phenomenon. I doubt that every summoner above silver was picking Karthus the day of his VU with "Karthus is strategically the best decisions here" in mind.

  133. ShadowSectJune 27, 2014

    But a week has passed already. Wouldn't you think that the community would stop testing out at this point? But the win rate of yesterday and the day before hasn't exactly improved.
    The reasons for the doubt is what makes deducting a part of life. Imagine how bad the game would be if we knew straight out for every champion how bad that person is or how good that person is.

  134. ShadowSectJune 27, 2014

    I didn't exactly state that the item win rates are all hunky-dory.With the popular items now though, we can see that the most popular build for Twitch is likely Botrk, Greaves, Inf, PD, LW, and Youmuus, which is actually fine for a Twitch.
    Regarding how a champion's ability to make use of items, that's skill related, which could mean that Twitch has gotten more skill based like LB, which could be a bad thing.
    Regarding that, let's look at the win rates of Bronze, Silver, and Gold.
    Bronze: 45%. Silver: 45%. Gold: 45%.
    So it's 45% across, so it's not skill, so what could it be?
    Either way, that win rate is Tier 2 placement, or Tier 3 for that matter.

  135. I'd be surprised. I'm still nowhere near done theorycrafting builds for Lucian, and I've been at it every day since the patch notes were published.

  136. Athene's Nashor's Deathcap Lich Bane is a fine build for Kayle, but time has shown that it isn't the ideal build. For all I know, 4 Doran's SotD IE Twitch is actually ridiculously good - stranger things have happened. All it takes is one game of Sneaky going crazy for Twitch's builds and playstyles to completely change.

  137. Same here. I haven't come to fear him yet, since I've never seen him since 4.10 release.

    Yet above, it sound like he's rampant, and 7.5% pick rate is much higher than his former like 1% pick rate. It's in the middle somewhere of pick rates, staticstically speaking. He'll probably catch on in a week when SSJ releases 4.10 and LoLKing trends releases another video featuring him.

    Until then, I'm going to abuse the free elo for being ahead of the curve!

  138. He is getting a nerf, but it is a minor one:
    Crystal Slash
    Physical and magical damage both reduced to 18 / 28 / 38 / 48 / 58 from 20 / 32 / 44 / 56 / 68.
    Bonus movement speed reduced to 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 % from 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 %

  139. So underrated man, his damage has caught up to everyone else and his cc is strong!

  140. I'm starting to like you a lot. This is one of the most well made summary of the possibilities. Bravo, I have nothing more to say :D

  141. I trust lolking to be what it is - a platform for relatively simple, easy to understand statistics. It's not that I think it's lying, I just think that the information they provide is incomplete, and insufficient to draw conclusions from.

  142. ShadowSectJune 27, 2014

    How is it incomplete? It encompasses nearly the entirety of solo queue!

  143. Suppose you want to know Elise's win rate in games that last longer than 40 minutes. Will lolking tell you that?

    Just an example, of course. There's a lot of information that's not included in the package lolking delivers.

  144. The Power Of Wombo

  145. ShadowSectJune 27, 2014

    While this is interesting and all, this has really nothing to do with this discussion, so why post this?

  146. Why not, you said it was interesting, just for entertainment! (Sorry if I sound rude)

  147. ShadowSectJune 27, 2014

    It is for entertainment, but the point of these discussions is, well, discussions.
    Also, it shouldn't be the first thing I see when I look at the comment section.
    If you really want people to see it, share it with your friends or put it on the LoL forums.

  148. SquirrelNutkinsJune 28, 2014

    I get what you're saying, but win rate (in the long run) will explain that! If the potential is there with an item build, popularity will eventually catch up. If it never does we really can't say there's strong proof of him being a great champion. We'd consider the people that kick ass with him as outliers...sort of how we do when we come across someone who mains Urgot and kicks our asses lol. Technically anyone can dominate with any champ if you learn all the nuances regarding them... (making this game always fresh and interesting) but some allow for more potential to be tapped much quicker.
    What you're getting into with the % of people that build him like this and the % of people who don't, that's tough to look at because it is ever evolving. What we can do is take snap shots of a point in time (winrates for tier lists) and make judgements on what the current Twitches are doing out there as of now, making it feel current and giving the most helpful information without going into every detail.

  149. SquirrelNutkinsJune 28, 2014

    Be yourself Timmy.

  150. SquirrelNutkinsJune 28, 2014

    Lol that was actually a cool video. And I suppose anything can be posted here so long as SSJ lets it remain.

  151. RundownmonkeyJune 28, 2014

    i disagree witht he low tf intiation and out dueled as his ult is great initiation after a sheild speed boost and with his new passive in its current form his trading potental is much more up to par.

  152. RundownmonkeyJune 28, 2014

    as a main sej and naugt jungler im gonna love the golem rework.

  153. lolking is available if I want to know how successful people are being with Twitch right now. I look to a tier list like this one to examine how powerful *champions* are, not how powerful *players* are. I can only get SSJs value judgements and theorycrafting from this site - there are dozens of sites I can go to if I just want to find out 'oh, Fiora has a high win rate and Twich has a high win rate.'

  154. SquirrelNutkinsJune 28, 2014

    Ya, and win-rate is a big factor in this tier list but its not everything. But it is probably the most important factor of them all. Other factors that aren't weighted as heavily seem to be easiness, potential, and/or how easily/hard they're countered.

  155. ShadowSectJune 28, 2014

    Not to mention considering tier lists are designed that all the champions on the list are played at equal skill, and most of lolking's win rates have the same relative audience playing, it's pretty accurate.

  156. Timmy KuecherJune 28, 2014


  157. Oh I think he's great at dueling (it's a key point in my 4.9 post); let me clarify what I meant:

    He gets outdueled by Udyr, Lee Sin, Jax, and Irelia (some of the strongest duelers in the game). He can duel pretty hard with the reasons you listed, but not without items, and certainly not early game. He gets a mid-game dueling spike, and it's a pretty significant one.

    As for teamfights, he's not any better at initiating that Volibear IMO, who is famous for getting kited and CC'ed when he tries. Yes, the Ulti is amazing, but you have to be in range to use it first. The speed boost isn't as good as a Vi Q->Ulti.

  158. TonyTheLiger1412June 29, 2014

    Karma is already too powerful, without the introduction of ardent censer.

  159. wukong onlyJune 29, 2014

    Viktor would probably be viable if he didn't have the worst passive in the game

  160. RundownmonkeyJune 29, 2014

    true but i was simply pointing out you said 'low' intiation its more in the middle same as a volo. as for the dueling although he can be outdueled its to only about 10% of champs which puts him in good place for dueling so your origanal point of simply saying out dueled as a weakness is wrong, if because he can be beeten in a duel is a weakness then jax udyr irelia and olaf would be the only ones that would avoid that statement. and yes i know that you where pointing out the early game as his main weakness in these areas which is true.

  161. rainy1314emily .June 29, 2014

    Karma is only perceived "powerful" because Bjergsen made a penta kill possible with her. Before that, no one even recognized her, let alone our dear author here (who placed her in balanced/viable tier). Karma isn't overly good at anything, her rework just made her a very versatile caster that could fit in to any line up, but not overpower anyone

    Her second part of Mantra Q was an unreliable AoE nuke that could be easily escaped unless you have good team coordination or timing, her Mantra/Regular W placed her in a high-risk for high reward situation and her Mantra E gives her team a soft shield + desirable MS boost just to escape/initiate critical moment but does little in preventing enemy team for catching up.

    Karma's versatility is her very bane in sense that she couldn't exactly excel in either role because she didn't carry nor support as hard as your typical support or mage. Ultimately, it meant that she had to rely on other team mates for victory in a competitive play, whereby coordination is very important.

    If any, Karma is not powerful. Karma is strong, she is healthy strong. And the only scene that makes any champions toxic these days is the competitive scene. Look what happened to a healthy AP Mid Mage first Assassin second Ahri as a result of her popularity with DFG. If any, it's the item that made her FoTM, rather than her kit. The same thing will happen to Karma with the introduction of Ardent Censer.

  162. I would probably say using Twitch's Q to escape is the wrong ADC mentality in the first place.

    Yeah, mid game you can pull off Assassin Twitch. Good luck doing it though if you're 1) without a support 2) Without a Tank 3) facing 2 or more enemies or 4) considering the original 3 seconds (pre nerf) as a disengage.

    ADC Twitch was hardly nerfed. He can still sit behind his front-liners and ulti. Merely, Assassin twitch was nerfed, and that's how everyone has gotten used to playing him (hence the drop in win rate).

    Bottom line: Using q to disengage was the wrong usage in the first place, and now it got considerably harder. An ADC should use the Q at right before a skirmish for the attack speed buff (not stealth).

  163. Hey man, in case you're interested, Twitch is currently sitting on 8 picks, 5 wins, and 3 bans, out of 24 games.

    Certainly a long fall from his near 100% pick/ban rate of patches past, but not terrible by any means.

  164. Thanks for the support!

  165. I think you overreacting a bit, everyone has their opinions, so I respect this, also I don't know where to post it, it be nice if u can help!

  166. That's likely due to know one knowing how to play her post-rework, and waiting for the koreans to show the "correct" build.

  167. If we are talking about tier changes. I can see gragas top being a tier-1 pick now. Look at dat percentage health damage and utility!

  168. You just upvoted yourself.

  169. ShadowSectJune 30, 2014


  170. Well that was quick. Also I disagree that twitch was ruined. I am still a strong proponent of gragas top now, and also I believe lissandra will rise soon enough, with high damage mid-laners not being the trend atm. Oh and I feel a certain assassin called Talon that deserves god tier.

  171. ShadowSectJune 30, 2014

    I use my computer a lot, so when I get an email from Disqus, I am prone to reply. It's a habit I'm trying to get rid of.
    But let's talk over your positions one by one.
    Twtich: Unfortunately as shown by the long argument on this exact same page, Twitch's win rate and both his survivability and his ability to reposition has gone far down the drain, and it hasn't gone up any time soon. I disagree now that he is a terrible ADC (thanks to SSJ enlightening that win rate isn't everything), but he's definitely not Tier 1 or God. He's now balanced by the changes that have come his way.
    Gragas: SOMEONE AGREES! Unfortunately, his win rate and the fact that it's not popular enough isn't enough to boost it on the tier list, but just like how I feel about Vel'Koz support, it's definitely something underestimated.
    Lissandra: I await to see if her win rate goes up and whether or not she does better in games right now. I haven't seen her enough to give an opinion (nor have I played her enough), but I'll start playing her and see what happens.
    Talon: This is where we disagree. He is Tier 2, and deserves its location. His win rate has inched up in Gold and Silver, but its static in Bronze. I usually love snowball champions, but Talon is REALLY squishy and requires skill that Bronze doesn't like. He also is very reliant on his AA, and champions like LB and Ziggs can give him a run for his money, and Kayle and Fizz do not have to worry when the Blade's Shadow gets close.
    However, I will play him more and see if I have more input. Do you have any builds to recommend?

  172. Gragas top, hahaha... oh wait ur serious. My opnion he doesnt belong FULLY in the meta, Tier-2 <3

  173. I played Gankplank jungle (when i was bronze cause im a noob), i didnt even think about it, i was just like his name has Gank in it so why not?

  174. ChessmasterJuly 01, 2014

    This post is annoying.

  175. I feel like with talon's current position I do not feel he is the strongest mid-laner by any stretch. But he is definitely the best assassin right now. Oh, and also one to consider is he wasn't hurt at all from the changes compared to some champions *zed*. I think assassin-wise Katarina, him, and ahri are the top-picks right now. (biased towards ahri.) Another person to check up on is everyone's friend Teemo. Once kayle falls out in the top-lane. I feel teemo is gonna run up to take her position. And last of all! Viktor = tier- 1

  176. Youmuus hydra, LW, IE, GA, Boots of any sort pretty situational, although I mostly get CDR boots.

  177. If you want a really underrated mid-laner check out xerath or viktor :)

  178. Sorry am I forcing you too look at it, my bad.

  179. CamochampJuly 02, 2014 can direct the second auto because it is two autos not one.

  180. MrNiceGuyJuly 09, 2014

    True, if you are reletevely ahead go for it, otherwise I wouldn't risk it.


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