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SEASON 4 - PATCH 4.6 SOLO QUEUE TIER LIST
SEASON 4 UPDATE
SEASON 4 UPDATE
This List has been updated, and new versions are available via this link
Ready yourself, it's a brand new updated tier list that's....on time?! So in this patch they addressed some fairly common complains going around, namely on wriggles lantern and heal. I think that heal is still a viable choice in lane, especially mid if you're going against a high burst champion. However, for bot lane I think it's better for one of them to run exhaust now rather than double heal.
I've made some changes to the God Tier and Tier 1 champions this time around, but as you can see from the population in the middle, Riot's doing a great job balancing the game considering how many champions they've put in.
As usual, check out the list below and add your thoughts and comments in the comment section. Please remember to keep comments classy and personal attacks to a minimum, thanks!
Patch 4.6 Summary
Updates:Buffs: Gragas, Kassadin, Maokai, Rengar, Rumble
Nerfs: Wriggle's Lantern, Heal
- Added Heimerdinger top, Gragas support
- 5/3: Moved Ryze top to tier 1
Use CTRL + F to Search For Champions
God Tier [Very Strong]:
Mid-Lane Gods: Kayle, Ziggs
Jungle Gods: Warwick, Xin Zhao, Amumu, Kha'Zix, Master Yi, Vi, Wukong
AD Gods: Jinx, Draven, Miss Fortune
Top Lane Gods: Jax, Fiora, Trundle,
Support Gods: Morgana, Thresh, Leona
Tier 1 [Really Strong]:
Mid-Lane: Soraka, Katarina, Talon, Swain, Orianna, Nidalee, Karma, Heimerdinger, Anivia, Yasuo, Lux, Morgana, Galio, Malzahar, Leblanc, Ahri, Brand, Syndra, Pantheon, Diana, Lulu (AP), Fizz, Wukong, Kha'Zix
Jungle: Nocturne, Elise, Jax, Evelynn, Fiddlesticks, Volibear, Shaco, Jarvan IV, Udyr, Lee Sin, Pantheon, Aatrox, Tryndamere, Hecarim, Dr. Mundo,
AD Carry: Caitlyn, Lucian, Graves, Varus, Tristana, Ezreal, Sivir
Top Lane: Kayle, Renekton, Nasus, Ryze, Wukong, Soraka, Shyvana, Dr. Mundo, Singed, Tryndamere, Warwick, Heimerdinger, Yasuo, Darius, Teemo, Olaf, Aatrox, Yorick, Kennen, Jarvan IV, Elise, Malphite, Lee Sin, Udyr, Volibear, Karma, Nidalee
Support: Sona, Taric, Karma, Zyra, Lulu, Janna, Blitzcrank
Tier 2 [Balanced]:
Mid-Lane: Twisted Fate, Viktor, Cassiopeia, Akali, Fiora, Annie, Kassadin, Kennen, Mordekaiser, Zed, Vladimir, Vel'Koz, Xerath, Zyra, Teemo, Elise, Lissandra, Sion, Ryze, Jayce,
Jungle: Skarner, Nautilus, Rammus, Olaf, Zac, Maokai, Nasus, Shyvana, Rengar, Leona, Trundle, Malphite, Gragas, Diana, Zed
AD Carry: Ashe, Corki, Twitch, Kog'Maw, Vayne, Quinn
Top Lane: Rumble, Riven, Cho'gath, Zac, Xin Zhao, Rengar, Master Yi, Pantheon, Viktor, Shen, Poppy, Akali, Quinn, Vi, Swain, Kha'Zix, Vladimir, Garen, Jayce, Lissandra, Zed
Support: Annie, Nami, Fiddlesticks, Alistar, Soraka
Tier 3 [Needs Higher Skill/Knowledge Than Usual]:
Mid-Lane: Gragas, Karthus, Veigar, Riven, Tristana, Cho'Gath, Fiddlesticks
Jungle: Sejuani, Nunu, Cho'Gath, Shen, Malzahar, Yasuo, Fiora, Riven, Kayle, Poppy, Darius,
AD Carry: Twisted Fate, Kennen, Urgot
Top Lane: Irelia, Gangplank, Mordekaiser, Sion, Vayne, Talon, Nunu, Galio
Support: Teemo, Nunu, Volibear, Lux, Nautilus, Gragas, Orianna, Nidalee, Zilean, Gangplank, Shen
Tier 4 [Difficult to Win]:
Mid-Lane: Kog'maw, Zilean, Janna, Ezreal (AP),
Jungle: Gangplank, Blitzcrank, Alistar
AD Carry:
Top Lane: Urgot
Support: Kayle, Malphite, Poppy, Elise, Galio, Maokai, Yorick, Lissandra, Ashe, Leblanc, Caitlyn
- Champions in BOLD I will talk about shortly
- Champions UNDERLINED may be over/undervalued, but aren't/haven't played enough for me to make a better judgement.
- Within each tier the champions are strongest from left to right, but within a tier each champion's strength is relatively close. This is especially true for Tiers 2 and 3 where these champions are ALL highly playable and player dependent on how strong they are in-game.
Champion Explanations
- Akali [Tier 2 Mid] - She's still strong in certain match-ups, but definitely suffering as of late due to the current FOTM champion pool.
- Graves [Tier 1 ADC] - The 4.5 buffs were kind to him, and this has become more and more apparent as of late.
- Karma [Tier 1 Support] - Her damage output is really insane, and synergizes well with champions like Draven and Jinx.
- Master Yi [God Tier Jungle] - The nerfs definitely hurt him a bit, but he seems to be hanging onto his OP status for now.
- Sejuani [Tier 3 Jungle] - Sejuani's suffered greatly with the introduction of the Feral Flare, and seems to be getting phased out quickly. The main difference between her and Amumu is the fact that Amumu's sticking power and ultimate execution speed are just in a whole different level.
- Sona [Tier 1 Support] - While her win rate is the highest out of all the supports, it's likely a result of her low popularity. She's definitely still strong, but her core strength currently doesn't fully make up for her lower utility.
- Soraka [Tier 1 Mid/Top] - Soraka is broken right now. With good jungle communication, she's easily one of the strongest mid laners in the game. Her only downside is that she's almost always going to be camped since the enemy laner will be complaining 100% of the time, but that just makes it easier to countergank. Previously, you could still take her down with ignite, but with the changes on Heal Summoner in Patch 4.5, it's almost impossible.
- Trundle [God Tier Top] - Trundle's been flying into the scene ever since Renekton's nerf. He can do a lot of same roles, and one he gets a blade of the ruined king and some tankiness, his ability to shred tanks from 100 to 0 is absolutely insane. He also has a very high amount of sustain, which makes him ideal as a stable top lane pick.
- Twisted Fate [Tier 2 Mid Lane] - I think Twisted Fate is definitely on the rise, and could potentially be strong again soon. It might be too soon to tell, but keep your eye on him.
- Warwick [God Tier Jungle] - Warwick with Feral Flare is very broken right now, and his ultimate is just as obnoxious as ever...except now he just has more damage and can solo kill.
- Xin Zhao [God Tier Jungle] - If you've been playing lately, I don't think this one will come as a surprise to you. His ganking options and damage output are immense with Feral Flare.
- The purpose of this list is for discussion and to provide a starting point for hero selection.
Agree? Disagree? Comment below!
Seriously, Twisted Fate is on rise again :( he doesn't even need to get kill in his lane, just ult bot lane then top lane ( with the rise to squish champs in top lane it's even easier ) and even the enemy jungle and feed your team GG
ReplyDeleteWhat are some strong answers to soraka as of now? Seeing as she has a strong point in every stage of the game wondering how you beat her. Been trying some anti mages such as kassadin and talon, malzahar, and none of them seem to be able to beat her so long shes not retarded. Riot I pray to god will nerf her in her laning presence in the future. But for now how do you deal with her in mid/top?
ReplyDeleteAlso reasons for gragas support being so low, as well as kassadin mid?
ReplyDeleteGragas right now as a support is a very dive heavy support similar to leona yet has some damage output due to his w, as well as a lot of cc (slow, stun/knockback's) and great displacement, does well with granted a low number of adc's but with them he can can 100-0 them with a competent partner, also one of the few viable supports that have self sustain (not to mention he gets runic shield to help that even more). Nothing super overwhelming and people may need some more time to practice with him but once they do you should move him up at least out of tier 3, hes simply not that weak for what he can do.
Kassadin: If you get an ad mid picked into you, it's gonna suck so much at all points. But if you use him into an ap matchup post 6 you have the ability to control the mid lane, and as such the game soon after. The shield buffs late game make him a very safe assassin now. Typically only fearing the ad's damage now as late game it absorbs 550-700 magic damage depending on the build. The W buffs while not as large of a buff as the q ones were still help his overall burst, slightly but every damage counts. Also with that it helps counteract slightly the lich bane nerfs that were made seeing now as it's an item you need on kass 100% of the time now. Overall his main strength is still the same, just slightly better at what he does giving him a more defining role.
P.S. MS buff helps a lot now, you can afford to not get magic pen boots to get twin shadows (with lich bane and the MS buff it's basically the same ms with botts last patch) So higher burst, more utility and cdr is nice. Mana buff helps with his w. Giving him a larger mana amount back when he uses it.
Thats my 2 cents on them now. Otherwise great job on the list, as always! Malphite will be making a comeback soon (riot's buffing him as they have said).
Any opinions on Taric?
ReplyDeleteisn't there a little too many junglers in god tier right now?
ReplyDeletetryndamere and irelia is making a rise in the top lane shyvana also quite strong there right now, i think top lanes now gonna be mainly bruisers/duelists. Also nidalee currently is crazy at mid.
ReplyDeleteRight now in solo queue most jungle champs have the highest winrate.
ReplyDeleteWhat's your opinion about Nidalee? Her spears shred things fast. She has a no-mana low cd escape which is broken plus a heal that is really good. People want to have her nerfed and I agree.
ReplyDeleteI think Garen is really underrated. I know it's really weird for someone to bring Garen up, but a skilled Garen can stomp pretty hard, especially early-mid game. I've easily got 10-3 in the fist 20 minutes a few time.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I know, most Garen players AREN'T skilled, but I've still been able to pwn pretty hard even when against champion apparently in a higher tier (teemo, darius, wukong, etc.).
Hes' a noob champ, I get it...but he can be better than people think, it just depends on the person playing him.
I don't think the list needs a major change, just garen should move a little bit up. Anyone else's thought?
I'm sorry, but I don't think Gragas is a tier 4 support. He's been examined as OP by a lot of different players, and his winrates are solid with good support items
ReplyDelete49% Win rate Trundle, if he doesn't do well in lane he's usually just simply tossed aside in teamfights he is absolutely not a Renekton..
ReplyDeleteHow come soraka isnt tier 1 supp
ReplyDeleteThat says Tier 3
ReplyDeleteBut the problem with Nidalee is that you need to HIT the spears, it is an amazing skill shot no question about it but that and her early game is somewhat weaker than others and she starts to get good wave clearing on lvl 6 thanks to cougar, but yes, she is a monster, just ask people that have played against xPeke lately.
ReplyDeletePeople will misposition; this isn't high elo ranked. Plus the hitbox for the spears is bigger than other skillshots, which makes it easier to demolish things faster.
ReplyDeleteFiora tier god, renekton tier 1, oh well.
ReplyDeleteRammus should be higher (at least T1) -especially with popularity of auto-attack junglers right now who don't want to come out of the jungle.
ReplyDeleteI've found I have way more favorable matchups since Feral Flare was introduced. Plus me being the only jungler ganking/pressuring lanes is more common.
Glad to see Soraka mid getting recognized for the powerhouse she is. I'm kinda curious about Eve's placement, though- she puts so much pressure on the enemy team just by existing, has fairly versatile itemization (she can be a tanky DPS initiatior or a burst assassin- your choice), and is absurdly good at sticking to targets. She definitely suffers from a poor first clear and a lack of utility pre-6 (especially compared to something like Xin Zhao- red buff can only do so much), but I'm surprised to see her out of the top 10.
ReplyDeleteShe has no counters. Ban her or you lose. have fun gg wp rito pls
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you garen is really strong and can absolutely beat alot of top laners easy but the problem with him is that if hes behind early and gets zoned its quite hard for him to comeback. He also doesn't bring much to the team except being able to "assassinate" a target with his ult and tanking other than that he doesn't have cc. Other than that he should be placed higher
ReplyDeleteYou should reconsider Kassadin's spot in the tier list. This patch was very, very kind for him. The recent buffs he has gotten have made him much stronger, and his roaming is still as insane as ever. With a 53% win rate right now in solo queue, I think he deserves a higher spot on the list.
ReplyDeleteLucian is cleary God Tier
ReplyDeleteI think Kassadin buffs made him really strong (he went from 40% winrate to 50%)
ReplyDeleteUm... it's 50% win rate, and it's never gone above 51%...
ReplyDeleteJust saying certain supports are actually disgsutingly op rn. The BULK of supports cannot lane against him and he has the potential to snowball and get pretty FAT. If you play against you better start DRINKING because you have no hope.
ReplyDeleteJungle Gods: Warwick, Xin Zhao, Amumu, Kha'Zix, Master Yi, Vi, Wukong
ReplyDeleteAmumu and Vi has always been god-tier (or atleast for like 10 patches), Everyone else dropt and the Tier 3 Yi is now God this is depressing
I disagree with Sona being that low, and it being because of popularity. Her win rate has never gone below 50% (right now steadily 53%), and she's actually picked in about 1/10 of solo queue games every day. And if you get carry items on her, she gets incredibly powerful, and with Lich and Rabadon's, she has a win rate of 65%.
ReplyDeleteThat would be true... Except he requires a LOT of skill (especially his ult), very fast reaction times (you don't see those in Bronze or Silver), he has virtually no CC, he is extremely vulnerable to CC (his dash only removes slows), and, again, he requires lots of skill.
ReplyDeleteAnd talking win rates, 50-51% isn't impressive..
Move Renekton back upto god tier, The tweak to his ult changed very little, He is still the undisputed bully king of top lane. While the tweak does remove a little bit of his diving potential,he still bullies mercilessly post lvl 3. Another minor gripe is Kha Zix not being the king of the jungle, He is far superior to warwick in early game pressure and rivals him late game aswell. I could accept Kha maybe being second if you must but no - one else matches up. Shyvana is in tier 2 for Jungle? Tier 3 or tier 1 depending on whether you think she requires knowledge or not. Other than that and some even more minor gripes great list, keep it up.
ReplyDeleteTruth, but that Soraka mid person wasn't kidding about being viable .-.
ReplyDeleteTrue....his silence, if you used correctly, can help a lot (stopping a spinning Katarina, stopping Shen from ulting, etc.) I agree with you on all those points, and if he isn't snowballing he usually is doing bad. Still, he's not a bad pick if his team has the CC that he doesn't.
ReplyDeleteAgainst who? What are you trying to say? Speak!
ReplyDeleteI think after Renekton nerfs, Riven is actually Tier1 now.
ReplyDeleteShe has no sustain, she's a difficult to play (as shown by win rate), can be easily shut down by CC, and if she falls behind, she stays behind. She better fits the definition of Tier 2.Talking win rate, she's never gone above 50%, and right now is a steady 49%.
ReplyDeletegay
ReplyDeleteBecause she doesn't get enough gold to carry, and she's not as broken in terms of supporting.
ReplyDeletebecause its about Aggressive supports now, Morgana, Leona and Thresh with there stuns, slows and there engage skills make them the best.
ReplyDeleteLeona: E+Q can dive easly and stun, Then R another stun and her W so tanky makes her God-Tier
Thresh: Q+E can stun and slow the target, R 90% slow which is also awesome, and his passive makes him so tanky too, beside his W who help and juke any 1 easly
Morgana, Q+E omg that damage, W ignores CC no problem, and her R+Zhonya multi Stun, thats why they are the best
Soraka is awesome with a lot of heals, but ADC looking for more hard CC supports!!
1. Renekton: His win rate has hardly shifted from 49%, and his early/late game has changed greatly, both good and bad.
ReplyDeleteHe gets shredded by Trundle (which is now used way more often), he's VERY item dependent, completely destroyed by CC, and lack of CDR can be his downfall.
2. Kha'Zix: Where were you when Feral Flare came out? Because otherwise, you are not up to date.
Anyway, his win rate still wavers around 50%. He's overshadowed by most if not all Feral Flare junglers, he lacks CC, when he's on CD he's done for, he's very squishy, and unlike Feral Flare late game, he falls off the map.
3. Again, Feral Flare doesn't work with her as much as it works with others.
None of that is correct information, and the only place I've found different players calling him OP is youtube, and even then it's few and far between.
ReplyDeleteI would say that he's not played support enough to have a solid opinion, but he's fallen off the map completely. Also, his skills that WOULD be good for supporting have been nerfed...
well I think what makes Fiora God-Tier her kit is so amazing.
ReplyDeleteQ: double dash and high damage, which can help her to chace, run and gap closer smoothly
W: parries is so awesome aginst AA melee champions like Darius, Tryndamere and Nasus, she can 1v1 Darius level 1 and win easly, and the passive make her had 107 AD i mean wow who got that??
E: that attack speed with her life steal passive and build, she can 1v1 any one no problem and back door turrets like Tryndamere, Jax and Trundle
R: That Damage, Invisible, Turret Dive, thats insane
Renekton Ulti nerf made him slightly weaker in team fights, but he is still the counter of most Top Lane champions!!
I never saw Yi as Tier-3 jungle, I've always saw him as a Tier-1, but with the new Junglers Items, yeah he is a God-Tier, he carries almost every game, unless he faces Jax
ReplyDelete^^
ReplyDeletewell yeah I played Kassadin before and after that Patch, he became much stonger with higher burst, I still miss his Silence though T__T
ReplyDeleteTrundle counters all Tank champions, specially Dr. Mundo, Garen, Reneknton, Nasus, Olaf and Shyvana, get the Blades of The Ruined King + Ulti no one can 1v1 you, beside his W boost attack speed he can back door so fast, his only problem is he is not a good farmer, but when it becomes to 1v1 a Tank/Fighter he is just the best you need, even Dr. Mundo with his Ulti wont be able to escape or survive!!
ReplyDeleteThe problem with looking at win rates of champs when they build x item is that sometimes they only build that when they are really far ahead... It's like zephyr on adc... Adc's who are fed to all hell sell boots and get that as 6th item, so the win rate of that is probably like 70% on adc's... But does that mean you should buy it first 4 items? Hell no
ReplyDeleteSimilarly... If you can afford a lichbane and dcap on Sona... You're winning no matter what you build anyway...
Yeah it's even harder to trade with him now, that 0.8 AP shield lol
ReplyDeleteIt's a 50% win rate on lolking's average champion win rates, but if you look at the actual Kassadin statistics, he has had a steady 52%-53% win rate these last 3-4 days.
ReplyDeleteBest anti mage is <3 Veigar IF u know how to play him u can instant kill any ap champ with dfg and ult
ReplyDeletemeh veigar should be higher but it's all depending on the player and their knowledge of playing the champo
ReplyDeleteveigar can stun the entire team instant kill almost everyone once at a time sometimes depending on enemy top u can instantkill their tank if u get ganked u can just place stun and its also a very nice setup for your jungler your meteorite (W) has high ap scaling just like your ult does and u can hit multiple persons with it so if they stack up on each other or close stun throw W result= Tons of Damage
BUT if u dont get maybe early help u can get butthurt pretty hard
Yep. Contrary to what many lower elo people QQ about, Riven is actually extremely balanced.
ReplyDeleteWow! Nice tier list once again but I am suprised to see no move up on rengar and rumble, and kassadin all whom which I think now should be high tier one thanks to all their buffs (although I am biased to rumble even though they didn't help him insanely).
ReplyDeleteI think amumu should be low tier 1 atm with the feral flare carry type junglers it seems to me he will get feasted on early and as strong counter junglers are also imminent. (Not denying his strength but there are too many people that can deal with him.)
ReplyDeleteI will agree if you meant Malphite.
ReplyDeleteIt seems this guy wants to shape the meta by himself.
ReplyDeleteBut the top lane meta I completely disagree with besides jax and somewhat fiora. Renekton still is extremely strong
I played few games Sona and not yet soraka but i think they reach the same sort of build which is Mana Reg to substain the cost of spells to heal up & the CDR to spam even more.
ReplyDeleteLich & Rabadon aren't made for them and even if S4 support make more money i think if you arent in a good game you gonna have difficulty to grab one of those :/
Ezreal should be god tier
ReplyDeleteI think that you should add mele-ADC's to tier 4 / tier 3. They do fit in this meta because it shifted to squishy champs, so champs like Tryndemere, Fiora, and Master Yi can be an adc. I played with this guy and he seems to do well with Fiora ADC for example:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/43518452#matches
Yea, I stopped taking this list seriously
ReplyDeleteIt was good until a time he put... Lux in god tier LOL
Besides being gay.
ReplyDeleteI agree, she only Tier-1 or even God-Tier if you are a pro like BestRivenNA, in that case Riven got no counter
ReplyDeleteQuestion, why is Annie Tier 2 support now, surely with her powerful burst and Huge AOE Stun in Tibbers she should be Tier 1, I mean she's not God Tier level but she's still pretty powerful
ReplyDelete1. Just coz he gets countered by 1 champ doesnt mean he's useless. Oh but I'm underselling it, he gets maimed by only TWO meta champs atm. I'd argue that his early/late game cant have changed that match if his win rate hasnt changed. God tier pl0x.
ReplyDelete2. Where was I when feral flare came out? Maining Nocturne and Jax in the jungle as i always had, yeah i get a it hipster about it, big woop wanna fight about it lol. feral flare is a ridiculously op item but i feel some of its success of late is due to players not understanding how to 'counter' it. The majority of 'junglers' will just sit in jungle until 15 minutes or whenever then come out of the jungle, thats 15 minutes the other jungler doesnt really have to worry about counterganking. Kha Zix is still an incredible force and if you're simply going to dismiss him in the wake of all this feral flare hype, i'm disappointed.
3. I really didnt think Id have to convince YOU that shyvana deserved to be higher in the list, weren't you singing her praises last patch? Notihngs really changed to the feral flare, theyve just thrown in another jungle clear, which shyv excels at.
She is difficult to play, thats true, but once get lead, she will snowball. Her mobility is super-strong, you can get away easy from ganks and just go in whenever you feel you can kill your opponent. I'm only around platinum, but on this level, I don't really face hard counters on top.
ReplyDeleteshe has a really high skill cap, so she might deserve the tier 2, though
He and BoxBox are my masters in Riven :)
ReplyDeleteno, it is impossible for any melee champ to be an adc. sure they can be bot lane, but adc's are long ranged and their correct term is marksman.
ReplyDeleteI agree on the Nidalee part, 100%. I haven't been unfortunate enough to find myself against a Soraka in mid lane this season, but Nidalee is just... fucking... broken.
ReplyDeleteYou can dodge 20 spears, the 21st time she gets lucky and literally sends you back. You can try to engage on her, she'll just change to cat form and run away (for 0 mana).
She is incredibly frustrating to lane against, not because she is "OP" in the sense that she dominates you, but in the sense that it is -impossible- to stop her from farming and -impossible- to kill her unless she makes a really stupid mistake. No matter what you do, a skilled Nidalee will enter the mid/late game reasonably fed, and her maxed Q will allow her to pelt your team with spears from the shadows. Attempt to engage on her and she'll just change to cat form and hop away (even through thin walls), repeatedly. Dodging spears is a non-issue because in a teamfight situation she can literally close her eyes and throw a spear and she'll most likely hit someone on the enemy team.
There is simply no effective counterplay to Nidalee (unless the player is an idiot).
Her Q CD needs to be doubled, and then halved IF SHE CONNECTS. This will force Nidalee players to THINK about throwing spears instead of just spamming them knowing that eventually one will connect and force their opponent back.
Her cat form abilities all need mana costs, so that she has to think about conserving her mana for escapes rather than being able to OOM herself sustaining in lane then still be able to escape without difficulty.
Her Q needs to gain damage up to her auto-attack range, then start losing damage. This will force Nidalee players to use their brains and try to hit people from an ideal range rather than just "as far as possible".
Her heal should do reduced healing to herself, OR have its AP ratio slashed in half.
Ryze, Riven, Zed, Kassadin and Soraka need to be at least 1 tier higher.
ReplyDeleteCan anyone tell me why Annie Is so low in teirs? I remember once late s3 / right before preseason 4 she was God Teir. I do recall her stun got nerfed by like 0.25 seconds.... which is hardly anything plus the TIBBERS Cd reduction is really strong on her. Her utility and damage is the same as ever why is she in t2? i would think at least Teir 1
ReplyDeleteThis.
ReplyDeleteOutside of lane, there's teamfights to consider. Nid pokes HARD before a teamfight, and it seems like even is 4/5 people dodge it, you 5th person always gets hit. If that siege lasts 30seconds before a fight breaks out, there's a good chance of her crippling your team and forcing you to back out. Then there's the teamfight itself - she can go into cat form and execute or stay in the backline to heal/q. You're screwed if you focus her, since their are usually harder damage dealers in a teamfight, and you're never going to see her again if she survives the teamfight, win or lose. No matter how many times I ping in solo que, it seems we can never avoid 3/5 people on the team chasing down a Nidalee after a won teamfight.
She may not be a hard carry, but she is a a good augment and balancer to any team.
I've always said to my friends the 20/21 spears dodged arguement (different numbers, same concept). 100% agree with you there.
Nope, Ranked Solo Queue still says 50-51%. It hasn't gone above 51%.
ReplyDelete4 days ago it was 42%, so I would stop there.
If you're checking high elo, you're looking at more skill. And even so, I don't see win high win rates until I get to diamond, and even then it's only 51%. If you're talking about Challenger, then you can stop right there, and forget that the tier list means ALL of them.
ReplyDeleteUm... I don't think you got my argument. I was going against Riven, not for it.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, she has lots of counters.
Don't compare pros to solo queue. They have more skill then you or I could ever have.
1. His win rate has gone WAY down. If anything, I'd argue that 2 very meta champions are played often enough that he could never win. And that doesn't mean he has an advantage over everyone else.
ReplyDelete2. Nothing wrong with Jax feral flare, it's op as ****. As for the late game, you argued over how Kha'Zix's late game is way better than WWs, which it isn't, and I proved that. And a Feral Flare jungler still ganks, otherwise you're a bad feral flare jungler. Assists, dude.
3. I wasn't actually singing her phrases. Remember that Feral Flare list I made? Remember how low she was? Stop going off a tangent and look at facts. Shyv doesn't excel at feral flare, so turn around, get into an actual division in which you can understand things, and come back to me.
Unfortunately, the base damage nerfs have taken some of her early game power which made her good, though not enough to remove her viability. And though she's great in teamfights, her early game is null due to low range, her squishyness, and her vulnerability to ganks when she doesn't have her stun up.
ReplyDeleteI would re-analyze that trifecta, and replace Orianna with Kayle, because she really is THAT op.
ReplyDeleteZiggs damage is lower, but his farming is INCREDIBLE. You can zone champions and poke for eternity, and in teamfights he just completely obliterates the competition.
And if you can keep a Kayle from farming well, taking kills, and 1v3ing a team with her ult up, then I applaud you.
If you mean ADC, then no. Not even close.
ReplyDeleteWin rate: Rough 47% to 49% in the past 2 weeks.
CC: None.
Skill required: Moderately high.
Skillshots: 3 out of 4 abilities.
Squishyness: VERY.
Farm required: A lot. Item dependent: Hell yes.
I don't see how you would think he would be in god tier.
Or WW. WW needs to ult the adc in teamfight but the adc can position out of his ult range and keep kiting, but Yi can't because ha has no range so is basically a free kill when facin WW.
ReplyDeleteI would agree on all execpt Zed. too much skill needed plus with "anti-assassin" type mid-laners he is weaker.
ReplyDeleteYou are overrating her way too much right now. She just doesn't fit in the meta right now due to the fact that she is in deep shit when she ults. Any feral flare jungler can just jump on her when she does it.
ReplyDeleteAmumu's very high win rate plummeted down by 2% since 4.6. That's a damn big change. Feral flare junglers just rape mumu.
ReplyDeleteHe definately should be. He isn't exactly a skill based champion. All you need to do is peel for yourself and kite(something EVERY adc needs to know how to do). He's not strong in any particular role. But he's decent at everything. Early-Late, he's decent. Not like Graves, Caitlyn, Ezreal, Jinx, Draven where they all fall of at a certain point. Lucian is decent at everything.
ReplyDeleteFeral flare junglers can be pretty devastating to Eve. Their late game is too good for eve to handle even with all her tankiness.
ReplyDeleteI am starting to become more irritated at looking at these lists sometimes. Unreasonable placements on some of the champions.
ReplyDeleteJungle Kayle w/ Feral Flare is insane right now. Feral, CDR Boots, Frozen Heart, Runaan's, Triforce, etc....(+maybe a black cleaver, zepher, wit's end, etc) She can 1v3 late game. Her E (which ends up being spammable with all the CDR) procs Runaan's, which in turn procs feral. Her camp clear is insane, and her abilities contribute more to teamfights than any other traditional junglers. It's God Tier, and even if shes not fed off champs, her jungling will make it as if you have 2 fed mids late game.
ReplyDeleteAgree until you said that Draven falls off. Hell no.
ReplyDeleteI notice now that there's people missing from this tier list. Where's Master Yi mid? Or Kayle Jungle (though that's not that popular)?
ReplyDeletethis list http://www.reignofgaming.net/tier-lists/solo-tier-list/27662-solo-queue-tier-list-velkoz-era-patch-4-4 was pretty in 4.4, it's a shame they dont do it more
ReplyDeleteSame here, except I think Kassadin is in the right tier. I just think he should be higher in that tier though.
ReplyDeleteHow in the world does Feral Flare junglers have anything to do with how she lanes? Clearly you haven't played her recently.
ReplyDeleteWhat is it with the Renekton fanboys? Can't they take a hint from the win rates and the tweak that they "think" doesn't affect him?
ReplyDeleteAnd if you can't explain why you disagree with it, then your opinion will be ignored. It's like an attention seeker on Facebook fishing for people by saying "It's wrong!"
Oh I don't know... No escape and average range
ReplyDeleteTalking about nocturne, warwick, yi, xin zhao, etc. They all gonna rape the shit out of her. Laning? I'm not talking about laning. I'm talking about team fights when she ults. And I suppose you played her recently? HAH? ok then
ReplyDeleteYou should probably add Karthus top lane at this point, I see him there a lot more than mid lane (due to him being so vulnerable to poke there). Moreover, you have other mid laners listed top lane such as Viktor, Swain, Nidalee, and others.
ReplyDeleteWell, if you are just taking into account the enemy jungler and the friendly marksman, I'm pretty sure the jungler will win 90% of the time. This applies to not just MF and Xin/WW/whatever, but to most match ups in general.
ReplyDeleteNow, if you were to take into account THE REST OF THE TEAMS, clearly MF would have to position her self correctly and trust her team will protect her while applying CC to the enemy.
I understand your argument though. Your argument applies to all normal games, draft games, dominion, and ranked games below Diamond III.
The buffs to kass were overly generous in my opinion making his shield great with trading plus the insane AP ratio behind it .8 is really strong compared to most now. I think hshe is much stronger
ReplyDeletePosted a comment for patch 4.2 saying how Trundle with BoTRK can easily shred tanks and I negative feedback from that comment. Now he says that Trundle is God-Tier and everyone jumps the Trundle OP bandwagon
ReplyDeleteOk, take my opinion with a grain of salt, as I am silver 3 but I have played enough and with people from every range of ranked that I still think this should be considered :/ Anyway, I believe that (for his role) Draven is the strongest champion in the game, or damned close. He scales well, in the sense that he deals stupid single target damage just in general, his ult deals surprisingly high AOE when timed right, and has a (when playing Draven right) virtually permanent AD/AS AND MS steroid through his q and w. Scaling isn't everything though, as champions like Vayne and Kog'Maw show all too well. They can be completely shut down during early game, only to come back when the game should've ended, or not at all. Draven however, has even better early game than late (but I still think that a decently fed Draven is nearly as much a hyper carry as Vayne, to an extent) and his snowballing potential is something to reckon with; should Draven be forced to play passive, due to a couple stale trades, he will farm and farm and farm. Then the instant he gets a kill, he basically got 3 and a half.
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to say he isn't without faults, such as his fairly average range, lack of immediate reposition, and less than Graves esc AOE damage. But he also performs in the other areas massively better than the other champions, and isn't the WORST at his faults (I'm looking at your range Urgot). Think about it, but still, don't berate me as I admit I'm not Doublelift in my knowledge of adc's.
1. Your 1st comment said his win rate hadnt shifted? Name anyone else thats meta and has an advantage over renek.
ReplyDelete2.i didnt say there was anything wrong with feral flare jax. I didnt say
Kha zixs late game was better than warwicks, I said it was an incredible
force and could rival warwick, which it can. If it goes uber late,
which the current meta isnt about, warwick would beat him. keep in mind
that this tier list is catering to mainly gold, silver and bronze
players of course the majority are bad feral flare junglers.
3. yes you copy and pasted a feral flare list off a site which listed ferals flares successes, but then on my comment you proceeded to claim that shyvana deserved tier 1 and how she was such a great jungler. I was arguing that she should be tier 3 or are you too damn dense to remeber what you say? You change your opinion more often than most people change their clothes and as such you should refrain from commenting with your opinion. its blatantly obvious that you simply don't understand common things such as courtesy or even humility. you're really gonna call someone out on their rank in a tier list that is mainly for bronze, silver and gold. Forgive me for repaeating myself but i feel as if i have to repeat myself to get it through ur skull. Truth is, you're probably only gold which is trash anyway. You disappoint me child.
Damnit. I didn't want people to discover my Soraka mid :'(
ReplyDeleteDraven can easily outduel anyone in the late game. Even big assassins like Yi and Zed have trouble with him. 85% bonus damage for each and and aoe disrupt with e is monstrous. His W is meant to be maxed second, and, with enough skill, its cooldown can be refreshed, making it a viable escape. Also, a global ult that procs it's damage twice is retarded. Draven scales well into late game.
ReplyDeleteYou should really consider looking at cassiopeia jungle she has amazing camp clear and most jungles cant handle her early game as soon as her ult is up makes her a great jungler if your team is wise they do more of a "bait" approach and she turns the laner into stone for the easy kill pre 6 her ganking isnt the best but still good with her slow and poison
ReplyDeleteI believe he might be asking for Gragas support tier listing...?
ReplyDeleteEve's never been a scaler, though. If someone like Mundo is getting outscaled by the new meta pick, then yeah, that's a problem. Eve getting outscaled isn't new, though. You pick Eve for what she brings to the table, which is stupid early game pressure- and feral flare doesn't hurt that at all. If anything, it helps her by making counter ganks less likely.
ReplyDeleteToo many people underestimating the damage of amumu even when he is built as a tank
ReplyDeleteShhhh they must not know...
ReplyDeleteTier 1 (Really Strong) should be renamed to just (Strong). Just advice. And why is Riven in Tier 2?
ReplyDeleteAverage range doesn't make him fall off... That's a different argument altogether.
ReplyDeleteHis damage is one important thing you're overlooking.
This doesn't just apply to mf, this applies to all ADCs. What's your argument?
ReplyDelete1. My first comment was how he's hardly shifted up, not down. And I don't need to mention any other meta champions without mentioning skill counters, which still apply.
ReplyDelete2. That is the definition of pretty much being better than warwick's, which it really isn't. And although it caters to those 3 divisions (+Platinum), people don't just flat outright suck at jungling. Otherwise, explain how on Bronze he has 52% WR, Silver 54%, and Gold 54%. If it's really catering to those divisions, explain those win rates.
3. I change my opinion because there is new information that comes my way. Would it suck if someone (ahem...) was completely stubborn and would never change their opinion if new facts were looking them straight in the face?
And forget insults, you've been doing them FOREVER. You've been insulting people since day 1 on this website, and you should talk to me about courtesy.
And if I'm in gold (which I am, Gold 2 now), how is it trash? I see the meta everyday, and I am entitled to my opinion speaking from experience. You can't just disregard someone's opinion, even if it does change. I might as well ignore yours because you haven't given me any proof other then stuff that looks good on paper.
My thoughts on Draven is that you need a strong support with you and that is something low elo seldom can give. Not to mention as a Draven if you are unable to cash in your passive before you die. you are much weaker and it's hard to get back into the game. (TL:DR he is the leblanc of adc: feast or famine).
ReplyDeleteBecause she doesn't snowball so hard as before, and you need real skill to play her, instead of pressing random buttons (before nerfs)
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry but your tier list is starting to get out of hand...your tierlists in season 2 and 3 were pretty accurate but now it's kinda illogical in my opinion. Just some points from many ones where many people would disagree with like me:
ReplyDelete- Twisted Fate rise...like wtf. This guy was dead since his nerfs and now he's good without a real change? I still see not a single reason to take him over any other midlaner.
- Top Lane GOD Fiora...really,like really? Like....REALLY? Riot already has some ideas to rework her by reason that she's a one trick pony...she has nothing except her ult. And her ult just will hurt if she's fairly fed. Nothing else to say.
- Trundle GOD tier....again too much. He might be very strong in a 1v1 situation but in teamfights you won't even notice him.
- Nami in tier 2 but Taric in high tier 1...it's just plain wrong to compare a high utility support with high outplay and plays potential with a one trick pony who is definitely in the bottom since his nerfs...Taric in low tier 2 and Nami in low tier 1 would be more accurate.
It might sound cocky what I wrote but I actually was one of your supporters who kinda agreed to nearly every single point. Now I'm just kinda disappointed with your new lists. I would appreciate an answer from your side SSJSuntastic.
amumu now has the highest win rate 54,49% http://www.lolking.net/champions/
ReplyDeleteNot at all, discussion is part of what makes the list fun! Fiora and trundle are great examples of champions who made it to god tier for completely different reasons.
ReplyDeleteOn one hand, I agree that ever seeing fiora anywhere over balanced is still strange to me, but considering her consistently high win rate and average play rate, it's difficult to out theorycraft results.
Meanwhile, trundle is a direct result of fotm. He's really easy to play and very safe in lane. While his win rate doesn't show his strength, he's the kind of champion a last pick forced into the role could potentially play and still add value to the team.
More to come. Typing on my phone and don't want to lose the text.
what about coloring the champions in green/red when they moved a tier up/down
ReplyDeleteSaid Kirbycake
ReplyDeleteYou're the best champ in the game, I don't know how people haven't caught on.
ReplyDelete1. 'His win rate has hardly shifted from 49%, and his early/late game has changed greatly, both good and bad.' that says hes hardly shifted at all, either way man. checking your comments before writing anothe rone is as simple as scrolling up, try it.
ReplyDelete2. since when does prasing his late game and say he RIVALS warwick get defined as being better than warwicks? come on man, Ive been pretty gentle with you this far considering how rude youve been but you jus topen yourself up to this through ignoranace. it doesnt cater to platinum, platinums would view this lsit for fun only really. people do just outright suck at jungling, especially with feral flare. ESPECIALLY with feral flare. theyre some good win rates but im not disputing that warwick or feral flare champs suck, feral flare is op.
4.Look man I havent been insulting people since day one on this website, Ive helped a few people with praises from you as I recall. It was my intention to have a good conversation with you but this is getting too personal and maybe I shouldnt have said you disappointed me in my first reply. its patently obvious you got upset over this remark and I apologise. How is gold trash? Ive been playing this game for 4 months? since the start of season 4 anyway, I hit gold 5 the other day. People STILL blame each other, flame, get toxic and make the most retarded mistakes. No i cant dismiss someones opinion out of hand, but you have a tendency to make HUGE statements with very little evidence.
I'd like to see her 1v1 Warwick. The wolf has stupid amounts of sustain and feral flare gives him good damage output even when building straight tank. And with feral flare and wit's end warwick's ult will devastate Kayle's health bar
ReplyDeleteWhy is Fiora god tier top?
ReplyDeletei think vayne should b more than balanced
ReplyDeleteTrundle is in the meta along with Renekton and everything, he excels with his ult in teamfights.
ReplyDelete1. Another insult. I've had enough of this.
ReplyDelete2. Again, I just showed win rates proving otherwise. Are we going to talk all day about how people suck at jungling in Gold or are we going to use some common sense and look to see if they actually suck, which the facts show otherwise.
3. Yes, those people who make those mistakes tend to fall down into gold 5, not up here in gold 3 or 2. I made evidence, and you haven't shown proof of any winrates or games outright like I have. You've only been playing for 4 months... doesn't explain that much, since it's till a decent chunk of time to have an opinion, but it's a little inexperienced to people who've been around for years like I have, or have played ranked since they reached level 30 around season 2.
Alright then. It's kinda a matter of own assessment and experience you have on certain champions then which unfortunately changed against my favor. (tier list from pretty accurate in s2&3 to like 50% wrong right now ...just in my opinion though.don't take it as an insult) But you had a good point on Trundle which kinda explains his current tier.
ReplyDeleteNonetheless, thank you for answering and I hope your upcoming tierlists will improve back to old glory.
Thanks! Feel free to add your input on anything that you feel particularly stands out. In the previous seasons there were considerably less champions and some really stuck out like a sore thumb due to balance issues. Riots been doing a much better job this season though.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, she's a bit of a pickle to play, considering her difficulty factor and being one of the squishiest ADCs in the game.
ReplyDeleteIf he's on the rise it's only coincidence. The changes to lich bane are a lot worse for him although the half undo of the hold time of his cards nerf was nice, he is still a champ that only excels when you really exploit opportunities. There are still many champs in mid who are strong even when you aren't on your best game.
ReplyDelete1. Ive had enough of you're stupidity, the advice above should give you food for thought. I HATE repeating myself.
ReplyDelete2. The win rates were good, no one is disputing that warwick is a great jungler,of that there is no doubt. Kha Zix is still better for the reasons I have listed. We are simply going to have to agree to disagree. But Just think of how easy warwick is to kite. Im obviously not going to be able to change your mind on this which is ok, but at the very least concede that he is superior to amumu..
3.Well I did say i just made my way into gold the other night so I havent fallen into it. As for my opponents they are on average gold division 3 and 2. You havent made any proof of games outright? The stats are nice stats, although effective, always give a limited view. achieving gold in 4 months showcases obvious knowledge of the game. id argue that you cant really know as much about the game as you think if after 2 seasons you're still in gold.
Patch 4.5: "As the meta shifts, she simply excels against squishies without enough CC to burst her down before she ults. "
ReplyDeleteThat hasn't changed as of late.
Or, SSJ could think about my idea of me helping him and commenting who moved up and went down since last patch.
ReplyDelete*huffs*
Even if though, many people tells me she's a garbage champ.
ReplyDeleteI got 3 quadras yesterdat as Kassadin. Kassadin is still broken if not more. He is just played differently now. Max W. One shot people. Also the quadras are seperated in to two games. I have been looking at this website for the past 5 months now. Kass deserves tier 1 atleast.
ReplyDeleteI know the nerfs were harsh but his damage is still high and the W buff is enough for him to be in tier1. If not god tier again. I know you won't put him in god tier because of his ban rate gone from 1st place.
ReplyDeleteWit's End wouldn't help him against AD Kayle. Her clear is much faster, so she'll get fed+stacks much faster. Her ult negates his ult, and her Frozen Heart negates his attack speed and damage. If he builds straight tank, then he wouldn't be 1v1ing in the first place. He's annoying, but contributes little to a teamfight. He IS fantastic against the squishies, but you shouldn't build jungle Kayle squishy. Against AP Jungle Kayle, Warwick would destroy her.
ReplyDelete1. Ive had enough of your stupidity. Youve made a mockery of primary school education thus far and I can only repeat myself so many times.
ReplyDelete2. I said th ewin rates were good, no one is disputing that warriwck is a good jungler. kha Zix is simply better imo and many others aswell. I guess we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.
3. I said i got into gold 5 the other day so I havent fallen there. The average skill level i vs are gold 3s and 2s. You didnt show any evidence other than winrates, which are effective but never truly provide the entire picture. Im not discounting them but they arent the be all and end all and this tier list isnt based off of win rates. i daresay you dont know as much as you think you do if after 2 seasons you're still in gold.
4. I had some more stuff written but my first reply was deleted.
1. We'll just end this right here with your spelling and sentence grammar, and that will be all folks.
ReplyDelete2. Ok, thank God you removed that amumu comment, otherwise you were about to pop a vein. I concede that we disagree, maybe because we have different viewpoints, maybe because you have played Kha jungle more.
3. Yes, they don't provide the entire picture. I concede there.
After 2 seasons. Are you forgetting ranked refreshes?!? You've never asked what I was in S3 (which was Platinum 1 btw), and while my S1 and S2 were rough around the edges (I dare not say what my S1 elo was), you don't assume by what my rank is now... Not to mention there's more people.
4. Sorry about the deletion, I guess? I don't think your previous comment was deserved a deletion, as your argument isn't just invalid flat outright. After all, these discussions are a key part of the tier list, and how it's influenced.
Renekton is still very strong but I think the top of tier one us more fair than god tier for now. You could make a good argument for the bottom of god tier, but he's been in there for far too long. Time to give other champions a chance!
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to get over old prejudices. I still think she's a garbage champion but yet...she always wins
ReplyDelete1. We'll just end this right here with your spelling and sentence grammar, and that will be all folks. Although at least your comments aren't stupid like other comments that were on here 3-4 patches ago. *shudders*
ReplyDelete2. Ok, thank God you removed that amumu comment, otherwise you were about to pop a vein. I concede that we disagree, maybe because we have different viewpoints, maybe because you have played Kha jungle more.
3. Yes, they don't provide the entire picture. I concede there.
After 2 seasons. Are you forgetting ranked refreshes?!? You've never asked what I was in S3 (which was Platinum 1 btw), and while my S1 and S2 were rough around the edges (I dare not say what my S1 elo was), you don't assume by what my rank is now... Not to mention there's more people.
4. Sorry about the deletion, I guess? I don't think your previous comment was deserved a deletion, as your argument wasn't just invalid flat outright. After all, these discussions are a key part of the tier list, and how it's influenced.
5. Why was this removed?
I think the problem is the skill required to play him well now, as well as the whole different playstyle that people will have to get used to. Though I think it deserves low tier 1, god is not what he should be.
ReplyDeleteForget ban rate, look at win rate. 49% in Bronze, 50% in Silver, and 51% in Gold. This does show the skill required, but there should be some deliberation and more information on his potential in late game now, as well as whether he's in Tier 1 and Tier 2. The nerf was harsh though.
I would seriously consider high Tier 2 or low Tier 1 though.
\O/ Woot! Recognized.
ReplyDeleteYes yes yes yes yes yes.
ReplyDeleteI've been arguing Syndra support for months, though mostly not on this website. Why is she so underestimated?
skil-cap and too many supports can close the gap so she can't abuse long range. :( sadly I would wish for it to be strong. Also with low-range supports now. I.e: twitch, corki, graves. she lacks the range to exploit her range. (If that makes any sense).
ReplyDeleteSkill cap, sure, but not THAT many supports close the gap.
ReplyDeleteI didn't understand the "Also with low-range supports now. I.e: twitch, corki, graves."
I meant adc's T_T
ReplyDeleteThoughts on tryndamere ive been playing alot of him top and seeing good results.. aswell as jungle.
ReplyDeleteOh, should have guessed that. Now I look stupid, and I apologize for that.
ReplyDelete*slowly slams head on ethwahl*
I have to say though, the overwhelming majority of ADCs in games are ADCs with HIGH range, like Caitlyn, Lucian, and Jinx. Specifically Caitlyn, as she's played 2 out of 5 games.
He's perfectly fine where he is, as he's not up there with the big 3, but he's already in Tier 1.
ReplyDeleteAlthough, his win rates are 52% in Bronze, Silver, and Gold, it's not overwhelming enough to put him any higher than he already is. He is pretty much as good as Lee Sin.
As for jungle, he's definitely op with Feral Flare, I can give you that. 60% WR is no laughing matter.
Being serious, Corki should be somewhat lower. While his win rates are 51% in Gold, 49% in Silver, and 50% in Bronze, he's so vulnerable to CC, his abilities are dodgeable and blockable by minion waves, he's a tad mana hungry, he's so much better AP, and, frankly, he's not as damaging as he used to be.
ReplyDeleteSyndra support?
ReplyDeleteBut renekton still strong, relugar early, mid and late game, with he turns of a bruiser to a tank, but yet has a lot of damage, fiora still squirshy and a pew finish her in a second.
ReplyDeleteYeah as I said its a very minor gripe so I'll defer to your wisdom in this one. Care to weigh in on Kha ZIx? I'll understand if you, like a few others think warwick is better, I still disagree, but at least put him higher than amumu.
ReplyDeletewhy is rengar tier 2 if he was buffed? wasn't rengar tier 1 in jungle and top last patch?
ReplyDeleteDo you know what the counter to Trundle is? It is range. Range crushes Trundle. So, for example, a Caitlyn would be able to wreck Trundle easily. As such, the only pro to Trundle at the moment is that he can destroy tanks... Which really isn't that useful. I would prefer to have someone who can take the backline out easily rather than a tank killer.
ReplyDeletedisagree heavily with the Sejuani statement as she never actually got nurfed in fact with more jungle playing carry jungles rather than tanks she suits the current meta well, as her kit is a really strong counter to mobile champions.
ReplyDeleteRework, remember? Definitely retained the cat a bit, and he's now a shadow of his former self.
ReplyDeleteHe's still viable, and the buff was small yet effective, but he's definitely not as OP as he was.
"Sejuani's suffered greatly with the introduction of the Feral Flare, and seems to be getting phased out quickly. The main difference between her and Amumu is the fact that Amumu's sticking power and ultimate execution speed are just in a whole different level."
ReplyDeleteWhere in that statement is the nerf mentioned?
As for carry jungles, she's not as good as the Feral Flare junglers, and while people might play her differently, most don't.
I could agree more with you about kass. Hes now atleast not banned all time and somewhat balanced. Gj riot ^^
ReplyDeletethe point I was making is that there wasn't a nurf so why has she been put down to tier 3 the jungles that she is good against in general are the feral flare junglers as those are the junglers that her kit is suited to deal with so although you could stress that those jungle are now stronger, you must also think that that means junglers that she's good against will be getting played more that the ones she bad against.
ReplyDeleteFiora god top laner? Fiora is a strong champion, but I don't know what changed in this patch to take her to the god tier. She is a nice duelist, but she stands no chance against Shyvana, Renekton, Trundle and especially Jax in the laning phase, although not being even close to be effective as they are in teamfights.
ReplyDeleteHi, can you give me plz runes and masteries for your ad jungle kayle.
ReplyDeleteyea cause caitlyn plays top now...Trundle is op af top only counter is teemo
ReplyDeleteHow is top ryze lower than top yi? :S
ReplyDeleteAdd Donger support, please.
ReplyDeleteAttack speed Marks and Quints, flat CDR Glyphs, flat Armor Seals. Double Edge Sword, 4 Fury, 4 Sorcery, Expose Weakness, 3 Brute Force, Spell Weaving, Martial Mastery, 3 Executioner, Blade Weaving, Dangerous Game, 3 Devastating Strikes, Havoc, 3 Fleet of Foot, and 3 Meditation.
ReplyDeletei dont think Runaan's is a go to item, many other items that would be better. I would only get Runaan's for fun.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Magic Resist? What will you do against burst mages? or you just don't gank mages?
ReplyDeleteCan LuLu Top please be looked into? I was playing Trundle the other day as he is god tier and wanted to test him out, I was facing a LuLu and found her to be a good counter to him as she didn't necessarily allow me to get a lot of farm to begin game. Although she's not very damaging, I feel she should be assessed as she can add to tanks on team and forces trundle to be more of a late game player. I know she shouldn't be labeled in god but I think with the right skills she can be an asset to a team and should at least be labeled somewhere in Top Lane players.
ReplyDeleteBuild either Wit's end or Maw. Maw really helps against heavy hitting mages. Consider going Zepher-Maw-Sheen, or just gank the mage constantly so they cant get fed.
ReplyDeleteRunaan's is ridiculously fun. If your lanes are doing well and are all ahead, go for it. Your clear will go throuhg the roof, and so will your stacks on Feral, which will in turn make Runaan's proc Feral for more, etc. If your team is behind, don't go for it. Ideally, if you're ganking well, it shouldn't be an issue to get it. Time efficiency as a jungler is paramount and done right should allow this build to work wonders. Kayle isn't a technically difficult champ to play which allows you to focus on playing the best jungler you can. As long as you can avoid being shut down early, this build flies.
ReplyDeleteI don't konw why people rush lich bane on him since he NEEDS the ap : / rushing DFG it's so much better for dmg and helping ganks
ReplyDeleteI really think it's time Nami and Taric switch tiers. Taric offers little peel or cc for his adc, a rather weak heal, and, while he has nice auras, they are not nearly as useful as other support kits. In the current meta, he suffers because as a melee support with only one form off cc (that is rather weak and on a long cd) it is easy to ignore him, especially since his damage is low and he has no gap closer. This is why he has seen zero play on the professional scene.
ReplyDeleteNami on the other hand can harass effectively, heal her adc, offers 3 forms of cc, two AOE cc, and gives useful speed boosts to everyone on her team. She is great for peeling, initiating, and sustain. By no means is she an overpowered support, but her kit allows her to do everything a support needs to do quite well.
I am not arguing that Taric is a bad support. On the contrary, he does many things well. However, I really think that he is only balanced (Tier 2) as a support at the moment. On the other hand, Nami was demoted from Tier 1 to Tier 2 a couple patches ago despite consistently having one of the highest win rates among all supports.
No, her kit is not suited to go against very huge carry junglers.
ReplyDeleteWhile she's built for tankiness, she's mostly build for the main AD and AP carries. Jungle carries are a whole new ball game, and shouldn't be assumed this soon.
She's mainly used for high mobility junglers, like Hecarim, Yi, and Evelynn, and while she can definitely put a sock into the Yi Feral Flame junglers, the others are not nice on Sej. Especially Xin, Nocturne, and Udyr. And she can't do anything against the most popular jungler right now, Lee Sin.
And this is where I shine, and state whether he's absolutely right or wrong.
ReplyDeleteHe is absolutely right.
Taric is not as good as people say he is. He's been going downhill since his nerfs, and while it's a slow climb, every single patch he gets worse and worse and worse. The meta changes, and all of a sudden, people like Nami do much more damage (for carry supports) and have much more utility that benefits the meta. Not to mention Taric is a harder support to pull off overall.
Let's start with the win rate argument:
Bronze: Taric 51%, Nami 52%.
Silver: Taric 51%, Nami 51%.
Gold: Taric 50%, Nami 51%.
While not a big jump, still a little substantial. And if I have to say, that's just the past week. If I had to say the past month, Taric would be little lower, and Nami juggles between 50% and 54% most of the time.
Let's go with their playstyles. Cirroalex states this way more effectively than I can (look above, it's definitely something you should read instead of my shpeel), but to summarize, Nami is a VERY aggressive support, as she does great no matter the ADC (although I wouldn't suggest Urgot anytime soon).
While Taric is a decent tank, and the perfect support for tanky team comps, he's not great in solo queue, and not as easy to pull off if the other side knows how to deal with him.
Also, you should definitely try a Nami carry support build. I definitely recommend it, as it does VERY well. My safe build is usually Morellonomicon, Seraph's, merc treads, DFG, deathcap, and either Ruby Sightstone or Mikael's (and if you're doing really well, get Mejai's, don't underestimate the item, but don't use it unless you are very skilled with Nami carry).
She has great performance, but very hard execution. She's too team oriented to be viable enough for solo queue.
ReplyDeleteDo not underestimate Wuju style, young padawan.
ReplyDeleteNot popular enough and too adc oriented. Most ADCs I pull in with him usually desynergize with him, and it becomes a bit of a nuisance.
ReplyDeleteAlso, he doesn't have enough gold to keep up with everyone else, and if it was added, it would be either low tier 3 or just plain Tier 4.
Pretty much what LuchoUy said.
ReplyDeleteOne of the strongest things about Syndra, both as a support and a mid laner, is her flexibility in that regard. She can easily work as a poke support with her long ranged harass and use her stun/knockback/slow as disengage to keep a low range marksman safe in lane.
ReplyDeleteI think Ryze would also be a decent counter to trundle
ReplyDeleteOther thing I have to mention her ult too, is pretty lackluster bigtime as a support and irritating (to land her CC)
ReplyDeleteEarly S3 is stretching, but you ended up right after all. If I had to give a patch, it would be 4.1
ReplyDeleteThe ultimate certainly won't be blowing people up, but you'd be surprised at how effective it can be even with 0 or 1 ability power items on a squishy target. Her stun is hard to land without practice, there's no doubt about it. Syndra is one of the most mechanically intense champions in the game when played mid lane, and it doesn't get any easier in the support role. With that said, once you get used to it and comfortable lining up stuns on the move(something I find new Syndra players have the most trouble with), it really is amazing how much on demand cc you can bring.
ReplyDeleteIntelligent people should always be recognized.
ReplyDelete6.79% to 32.57% (using morgana as the 32) is a big difference. If she is only played that much, there's probably some statistic bias there. The more people that play, the less bias it gets (like how the more people you survey, the better results you get). Popularity is proportional to win rate, and it really DOES affect her. And just like what MrSpade said the items she gets are related to what other champs get, and in this sense, some champs, for example Morgana (Dear God), do better. So I can say that I'm happy with where she is right now. Also I really like your argument, but I can't take it seriously when Sona is your profile picture .-.
ReplyDeleteI know, but I still feel like she should be evaluated or maybe tested by someone who knows her because her polymorph works good with preventing heavy farm early game, and she can maintain lane really long, also with a good jungler she can cause top to fall out on non range champs or champs with not enough gap closers to kill her. I'm not going to hound too much, don't want to be annoying, it's just I feel with her pokes, range, and the right skill set, she can't necessarily murder top lane, but she can cause an enemy team's top to fall out. Maybe...just maybe debatable tier 2..?
ReplyDeleteTier 2 or tier 3, take your pick. If there was something between those two I would take it.
ReplyDeleteFiora jungle still tier three after all those people saying it's good? Shame on you, SSJ! D:
ReplyDeleteThe thing about Draven is that at higher elo, people are going to be able to see where he positions himself (or the general direction) because of how his Q works. He can try to edge it to the direction he wants, but it's still going to be something to work around. If you can zone him in a team fight, you can drop his damage output a lot.
ReplyDeleteIf Draven or his team that peels/front lines is much better than their team, then he's god tier with his only downfall being the lack of siege power that Jinx/Sivir/MF has.
Thank you so much for your reply!
ReplyDeleteNami carry support is quite fun! Another great item for her is Iceborn Gauntlet. Offers good amounts of mana, armor, and AP, and with her e, no one will escape! She really has awesome AP ratios, and while her abilities take some skill to execute, they are very rewarding.
Yeah, Taric has steadily gone downhill for a while. It's only occurred to me with the impending release of Braum how far he really has fallen from the go-to tanky melee support he once was.
I think I understand why Nami was demoted - mage damage supports, Nami's main weakness, like Karma and Lulu, have become quite popular. However, I think with mana regen Nami does offer enough sustain and damage to survive and with the right adc even thrive in these lanes. She also offers more cc than most supports, so even if she struggles in lane, it is quite easy to lock down her opponents (especially with a jungler gank).
kassadin mid deserves tier 1. he counters almost every ap mid in the game and his win rate has greatly increased after the buff
ReplyDeleteI think Shyvana deserves more recognition, maybe a low Teir 1. Same level as Nasus jungle? Nah. She can still power-farm hard, and is on a similar level of other Feral Flame Junglers in terms of low ganks (which, correct me if I'm wrong, is a main reason why she fell out of fotm status earlier this season).
ReplyDeleteShe can still gank, she just needs to wait to gank more at the mid game. She offsets her lack of cc with a combination of the Smite/Exhaust summoner duo, a Blade of the Ruined King, and eventually a Randuins or Frozen Mallet. Especially in the League of Thresh/Leona, a Jungler can get away with low cc in teamfights - just ask Kha, Jax, Noct, and Yi. Sure they might have one cc, but by that logic, so does Shyv with her ulti (which is pretty unreliable, like a Noct who's attempting to e an Ezreal).
She is still strong at all stages of the game. Level 1-3 she has a built in ghost, and can contest a lv 2 invade. She can provide a soft engage mid game with an ulti or w, or try to disengage herself with the same abilities (lacking hard enemy cc). Lategame lets her become a backline-diving god, and can easily surpass the enemy jungler in terms of impact on the game.
The level 1 cheese is stroooong
ReplyDeleteout of the 4 that you state she cant deal with only udyr is correct in your statement i ask when was the last time you played sej as ive been playing her, xin and naught as my three main jungles for over a year now (with the occasional Trundle) and of thoose three i choose sej to deal with carry jungles(which all played ones are currently Feral Flame users) xin deals with hypercarrys and jungles that are weak to counterjungling and naught is used to be the super tanky prick he is.
ReplyDeleteHis damage in late game IS incredible.
ReplyDeleteWait, what?
ReplyDeleteShe can't deal with those for CRAP.
I ask you when the last you time YOU have played Sej.
1. Xin is great at counterjungling Sej (like you said), and Sej is somewhat weak to counterjungle, and with Feral Flare, he becomes a monster at shutting you down.
2. Sej has a lack of any natural life steal or real sustain in the jungle other then her Q, and even that has a considerably long CD. Anybody who can capitalize on this (Dude, that's what Lee and Nocturne can DO) can absolutely destroy her.
3. Her early game is null, so those 3 are fantastic counters.
It's funny how out of the 4 i mentioned, you chose the 1 that I thought least countered her because Udyr's early game isn't very good like the others.
Increased? Check. Counters every AP mid? HELL no.
ReplyDeleteLet's start with any mid that has decent CC: Syndra, Leblanc, and Swain.
Then we go to popular champs that capitalize on keeping him far away, or doing a better job at being an assassin: Heimerdinger, Kha'Zix, Zed, and Yasuo.
Then we move to popular AP champs who do far more burst and damage than Kass: Kayle and Kha'Zix.
And anyway, Kassadin requires decents amount of skill to pull off, and his win rate, while it has increased, isn't that high yet because of the skill required, with Bronze at 49%, Silver at 50%, and Gold at 52%.
So at Gold, sure, but not the others, and this tier list is about those 3.
*Kha'Zix is a strong AP mid :O that passive tho*
ReplyDeletebtw Kha'Zix isn't played as squishy as before, because he hasn't the burst he used to have (poor scalings on E, just the Q does decent damage), sincerely I think he's not even viable mid now, but he's a fighter jungle (if you watched LCS you see that Kha'Zix is really tanky, of course building ArmPen and Lizard)
So yeah, SSJ, please consider switching the two, or at least putting Nami higher than Taric.
ReplyDeleteWe've went over this the past 5 patches. LCS has nothing to do with solo queue. It's based around team comp, they have more skill than most of us could ever have, and this list is solely based around Bronze, Silver, and Gold.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say he's not viable though, as he's not THAT easy to counter (maybe a little, 4 or 5... Nvm).