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Jun 4, 2014

Thoughts on PBE Nidalee Nerfs


So the latest on the chopping board for nerfs happens to be my all time favorite champion...the feline frisk known as Nidalee!

Despite being a high skill cap champion, as a result of continued professional success, it looks like she's back in the spotlight...

It appears they're trying to get away from the low risk, high reward play of AP Nidalee's spear throwing to a more melee style of play by giving her increased movement speed towards enemies she tags, and buffing her ratios when chasing down enemies in cougar form.

Her heal's attack speed has also been buffed, but it doesn't look like Riot's ready to give her defensive abilities back in cougar form yet.

Personally I think the following will occur after this set of changes:
  • AP Nidalee will still be viable, but much less so; likely dropping to a mid Tier 2 position.
  • Tanky AD Nidalee is sure to make a comeback, probably either with the chalice + spirit visage build or the trinity force + blade of the ruined king + randuin build.
    • Depending on if they revert her cougar's defense nerfs, Tanky Nidalee could potentially be one of the stronger picks again. However, it would definitely still be more of a split push role than a Renekton/Jax type top even with her new hunt passives.
Anyway, check out the "official" (non-official PBE) changes below:

Hey guys,
Nidalee has some gameplay changes headed her way, largely in the form of a modified passive and its interactions throughout her kit. These changes help reinforce a pattern of interaction between Nidalee and opponents, but since the changes are quite dramatic, they required changes to numbers and timings throughout her kit. I’ll be popping in and out of this thread while she’s on PBE to collect everyone’s feedback on her, so please feel free to leave it in the comments and I’ll try to get back to you.
While all feedback is welcome at this point, the stuff that would be particularly useful is:
  • Are Pounce and Swipe behaving the way you’d expect?
  • Are you having difficulty using her Hunt Pounce effectively?
  • How has your laning pattern changed compared to Live (both as and against Nidalee)?
  • How do you feel in roaming cases using your modified brush passive?
  • Did you notice any bugs on her?
  • What items are you guys building on her to be successful?
  • How was your experience building mainly Ability Power items?
  • How was your experience building more bruiser items?
  • Generally, where do you feel she is too strong/weak?
Thanks in advance for all your guys’ thoughts,
With that said, if you're interested in the full changelist, here it is below:
  • Basic attack hit timing adjusted to better match visual
  • Death Recap now properly differentiates between Javelin Toss and Takedown, and Bushwhack and Pounce
  • (R) Aspect of the Cougar now has 4 ranks and is automatically trained at level 1
  • UI elements added to support modified passive
  • Movement Speed increased to 340 from 335
(P) Prowl
  • Movement Speed in brush reduced to 10% from 15%
  • Movement Speed in brush is now increased to 30% while moving toward visible enemy champions within 5500 range
  • Damaging champions with Javelin Toss and Bushwhack causes her to Hunt these targets for 4 seconds, granting Prowl’s increased Movement Speed toward them and enhancing her next Takedown, Pounce, and Swipe against them
  • Nidalee ignores unit collision while Prowl and Hunt are active
(Q) Javelin Toss
  • Minimum base damage reduced to 50/75/100/125/150 from 55/95/140/185/230
  • Maximum base damage reduced to 150/225/300/375/450 from 137/237/350/462/575
  • Minimum Ability Power ratio reduced to 40% from 65%
  • Maximum Ability Power ratio reduced to 120% from 162.5%
  • Cooldown adjusted to 8/7/6/5 with rank in (R) Aspect of the Cougar from 6 at all ranks
  • Now deals maximum damage at 1300 range rather than 1500
  • Missile visuals adjusted to better match player expectation
  • Applies the Hunt debuff to enemy champions hit
(Q) Takedown
  • Deals 33% increased damage to Hunted targets
  • Minimum base damage reduced to 4/20/50/90 from x/40/70/100
  • Maximum non Hunt base damage reduced to 10/50/125/225 from x/120/210/300
  • Maximum Hunt base damage introduced at 13/67/167/300
  • Maximum non Hunt Total Attack Damage ratio reduced to 250% from 300%
  • Maximum Hunt Total Attack Damage ratio introduced at 333%
  • Minimum non Hunt Ability Power ratio introduced at 24%
  • Maximum non Hunt Ability Power ratio introduced at 60%
  • Maximum Hunt Ability Power ratio introduced at 80%
  • Now deals entirely magic damage instead of entirely physical damage
  • Maximum damage is now dealt when the target is at 20% current Health, up from 0%
  • Nidalee gains 75 Attack Range while Takedown is active
(W) Bushwhack
  • Ground duration reduced to 2 minutes from 4
  • Debuff duration reduced to 4 seconds from 8
  • Now only affects 1 enemy per trap
  • Flat base damage reduced to 20/40/60/80/100 from 80/125/170/215/260
  • Flat damage Ability Power ratio removed (was 40%)
  • No longer shreds enemy Armor and Magic Resist
  • Now additionally deals 12/14/16/18/20% of the target’s current Health over its duration
  • Now additionally deals 1% of the target’s current Health per 50 Ability power over its duration
  • Cooldown reduced to 17/15/13/11/9 from 18 at all ranks
  • Mana cost reduced to 40/45/50/55/60 from 60/75/90/105/120
  • Team color indicators added to better indicate trigger radius
  • Persistent pulsing particle adjusted for better visibility
  • Applies the Hunt debuff to enemy champions hit
(W) Pounce
  • Now moves toward the player’s cursor rather than Nidalee’s current facing
  • Base damage reduced to 50/100/150/200 from x/125/175/225
  • Ability Power ratio reduced to 30% from 40%
  • Cooldown increased to 5 seconds from 3.5
  • Can now be used to jump to Hunted targets at up to 700 range by hovering the cursor over the Hunted target
  • Killing a unit while in Cougar form reduces Pounce’s current cooldown to 1.5 seconds if it is currently higher
(E) Primal Surge
  • Base healing increased to 55/95/135/175/215 from 50/85/120/155/190
  • Ability Power ratio reduced to 50% from 70%
  • Attack Speed buff duration reduced to 6 seconds from 7
(E) Swipe
  • Now targets toward the player’s cursor rather than Nidalee’s current facing
  • Base damage reduced to 70/130/190/250 from x/150/225/300
  • Ability Power ratio reduced to 45% from 60%
  • Swiping a Hunted target reduces Pounce’s current cooldown to 1.5 seconds if it is currently higher
  • Cooldown reduced to 5 seconds from 6
(R) Aspect of the Cougar
  • No longer grants 20 Movement Speed while in Cougar form
  • Cooldown adjusted to 5.00/3.75/2.50/1.25 from 4.00 at all ranks
  • Nidalee gains vision of all Hunted targets while in Cougar form

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  1. (W) Pounce
    Can now be used to jump to Hunted targets at up to 700 range by hovering the cursor over the Hunted target

    Lol im curious to see that

  2. Seems awesome, lvl 1 cougar will be very fun, maybe we can see some nida jungler (not as a viable pick, but can be fun)

  3. Black KidJune 05, 2014

    The numbers are currently ridiculous, with the bushwack mainly.

  4. GregStratJune 05, 2014

    As usual, Riot prefers to apply the nerf battle axe rather than dealing with the problem in a more sensitive way, just because people are so butthurt and unskilled to even try to dodge the spears.
    Just a few numbers tweak would have done the job, like more CD, more mana cost and less ap ratios, but no, let's fuck up her whole kit and kill AP Nida, one of the most fun and different champs in the game.

  5. I don't think you understand the problem. Some good nidalees play passive after laning and just throw spears and run away in cougar form if chased. But great nidalees make plays by landing spears, placing good traps and using their cougar form to chase down targets. Taking full advantage of a champions full kit is the goal here and when one ability overshadows and comes to define all that a champ can do it becomes bad for that champ. Nidalee has 6 abilities, shouldn't players be rewarded for actually learning how to use all six together. In my opinion this rework makes nidalees abilities make more sense. She won't be able to 1 shot the adc with a q anymore, but she will be able to spear and hunt people down and still get away. A trap into a max range spear into cougar form into a huge leaping pounce into a swipe-pounce-takedown combo would deal huge amounts of damage. And then you'll still be able to pounce out with the CD reduction.

  6. Hoàng Nhất ViệtJune 08, 2014

    And that is why they have her reworked, that Q and E pretty much made her the Nidalee right now and overshadow every other ability, and much worst, she is strong with only those two. Maybe this reworked will kill Nidalee like what they have done with the pitiful Urgot, but if not? They will have a "balance" Nidalee(how sarcastic). Yeah, not a really bright future await her like every nerf hammer before, but at least place a bit hope. And also i dont want to be one-shot by a lucky max range Q anymore, i'm not that Faker to have the stamina to dodge every thing that throw at me

    for a *beep* long time...
    p/s: sorry for my bad English :'(

  7. GregStratJune 08, 2014

    Then in that case what they only need is to reduce the ratios and increase the mana cost and cooldown on both Q and E, and then proceed to rework the cougar form. That way we'd have a reworked Nidalee, with her signature skills nerfed but still viable, but with this rework, Nidalee is dead, since little people actually like to play AD Nida top, because she's boring, and she's only good at split pushing.

  8. I dunno. Right now, AP nidalee is pretty boring too-it involves spears, more spears, and then more spears. Having watched some PBE testers play nidalee right now, I think she looks pretty good, although still a bit powerful.


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