NERFPLZ.LOL Quotes: Talon Then and Now | NERFPLZ.LOL -->





Sep 5, 2014

Quotes: Talon Then and Now

57 comments

Introduction

So I've been doing tier lists for a long time now, and so I've received my fair share of complaints and insults from players all over the world on champion placement.

While we've all had our heated arguments with champion placements, at the end of the day, all we really want to do in ranked is WIN. (Except for the trolls...you know who you are!)

Earlier today, I was just thinking...maybe some day when Swain and Vel'koz are permabanned I'll make another of these posts. Or maybe their win rate will plummet suddenly and I'll be forced to admit I was wrong and biased.

Maybe neither of those days will ever come about. But today, let's talk Talon.

Today both you, I, and a large majority of the summoner base, AGREE on a champion (Hallelujah!) We've agreed that Talon is indeed OP in the current meta. So before Riot nerfs this champion and we go back to arguing whether Thresh is balanced or not, let's take a trip down memory lane to reflect on some of my favorite quotes about the Noxian!
*Talon made it to God Tier on Nerfplz.LoL's tier list Dec 10, 2013 11:07 PM

How We've Changed...

"Talon's Kit is BAD"

"I still think Talon is underpowered, especially against assassins like Katarina. Riot needs to let him E on allies; it would give him more versatility and maybe get on the level of other casters. His silence is also too short to be effective." [Dec 2013]

"Talon Kit is AHH-MAZING"

"Compared to Talon Fizz has no ranged way of waveclear (his e being his only form of reliable aoe waveclear) so this leads him to being poked a lot easier. Meanwhile, Talon has his ranged w and silence, which lets him waveclear safely and assassinate easily as well." [Sept 2014]



"Talon's Can't Kill ANYONE"

"Frankly he blows. He is a good early game champion and can assassinate like he used to until around level 12 where you use your full combo + ignite and find its just not doing the job anymore. The worst part is after your combo even if they are 20% hp left they can combo you right back and still kill you." [Nov 2013]

"Talon Kills EVERYONE"

"Talon is played as a clean up champion and his clean up potential is just too damn high! His invisibility and silence offer no counterplay and he needs to be nerfed ASAP." [Sept 2014]


"Talon is easily countered."

"There are definitely some major counter picks for Talon: Xerath and Lux, just to name a couple. I could easily name at least five or six more..." [Jan 2014]

"Talon counters EVERYBODY"

"Talon is god, he counters almost all of the meta champions, and he is the only assassin remaining with a silence. " [Aug 2014]


"Talon is garbage and so is his late game."

"Talon god tier? Don't make me laugh. Orianna, Gragas, and Ahri would be much better suited than that garbage champion. Talon's late game is garbage." [Jan 2014]

"Talon single-handedly wins games"

"Talon is easy to snowball uncontrollably and I win a great amount of matchups as him." [Aug 2014]



"Talon has a weak laning phase"

"I think Talon maybe should even be tier 3 or even low tier 2 would be stretching it. His only trading potential against ranged champions comes from a 20 sec cd gap closer and he has no amazing power spikes. He's also completely useless late game. As a 100% snowball reliant champion, he also has a harder time successfully doing that than others due to his weak laning phase. Definitely one of the bad champs atm and I love when hes on the enemy team." [May 2014]

"Talon doesn't believe in laning phases"

"Talon is too strong, boots of mobility - roam - roam - roam, comes back mid W clear the entire wave with 1 ability and then back to roam roam roam." [Aug 2014]


"Talon needs enemies almost dead to win"

"He's an assassin with few escapes, bar fancy enemy jumping with e and stealthing which still shows where you are thanks to the blades following you. This means he needs to have everyone low in teamfights so that they don't then turn and kill you." [July 2014]

"Talon don't care, he's got TRUE DAMAGE"

"Talon snowball potential is insanely strong if the team picks around him but even if they don't he brings INSANE amounts of aoe damage in the form of nearly true damage with all the armor pen he gets." [Aug 2014]


Much has changed in the past 9 months...

Wrap Up

As you can see, a lot of what's been said between then and now is exactly the same, yet player mentality towards the champion has changed. Personally, I think he's been strong all along, perhaps more so in certain metas than others.

Either way, the arguments are half the fun in making these tier lists, which is why I continue putting them together. While nobody ever agrees on 100+ champion placements simultaneously, that's what makes this game fresh and exciting.

As long as we're respect each other's opinions, this community is awesome.

Comment below!
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57 comments:

  1. FINALLY PEOPLE UNDERSTAND HIS STRENGTH! Now if only they would learn that teemo is OP still....

    ReplyDelete
  2. SSJSuntasticSeptember 05, 2014

    It's because zephyr is usually her last item, and full build irelia is op

    ReplyDelete
  3. Oh wow, I built it third item. Whoops! I still love some stats like 100% winrate for ohmwrecker on janna. :D

    ReplyDelete
  4. Austin NguyenSeptember 06, 2014

    I'm glad i discovered his awesomeness a long time ago. hope he doesn't get hit with the nerf hammer.

    ReplyDelete
  5. honestly f*ck you SSJ you might have made Talon more popular with your tier list and soon he will get Rito's attention and get nerfed

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  6. a champion who has become more and more powerful with every passing patch where popular mid champions are epicly nerfed. and it also helps if you can actually play the champ and master his mechanics, otherwhise it's just a feeding frenzy

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  7. Ponas NiekasSeptember 06, 2014

    try playing with him in plat/diamond, hes not op here, ppls know how to ward for avoiding ganks and put pinks for ult, if talon isnt overfed hes cant go anyone 1v1...and look whats happens if enemy got 4tanky pick ant protect their carry, it's like u are totally useless.. assasins like zed or fizz is way more reliable and cant be shut down in lane like talon

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  8. MarkusManiacSeptember 06, 2014

    He has a 55% win rate in diamond.

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  9. What's wrong with balancing the game?

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  10. DazedandDeadSeptember 06, 2014

    Thanks for the insight about what would shut down most assassins. Including the two champions you mentioned.

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  11. TOO MUCH STUPIDITY IN ONE COMMENT

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  12. He's not the only assasin with a silence, people underestimate full ap cho'gath true power :C

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  13. Only a few people janna with ohmwrecker so the winrate can go from 100% to 0 in 1 day.

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  14. Nerfing is not the only way to balance a game

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  15. Or full ad malzahar or viktor.

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  16. Me being one :)

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  17. If everyone could instakill everyone it would be a such a snowball heavy and toxic heavy. E.g Urf once it got a meta.

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  18. And that is exactly what Talon is about, snowballing. Talon is the only assassin without a proper escape, so there has to be some compensation

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  19. I don't see a problem with that since that's one effective way of counterplay.

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  20. But ppl will still want him nerfed cuz they don't know how to counter him

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  21. He's gonna be nerfed :'(

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  22. permanent oracle would let you know when he is coming for you from a distance
    and that would let you get him with proper disables because you had more time to react
    now people only use it after hes burst is done and your adc is dead since his burst is really fast unlike zeds
    and please


    no one pink wards the back line now days
    since if people dont fight and leave the ward will be destroyed anyways


    before you had to deal with people seeing you as go in as talon
    now you only have to deal with people seeing as you go out

    ReplyDelete
  23. SSJSuntasticSeptember 06, 2014

    Interesting conclusion, but Riot introduced the pink ward changes October 2013 :)

    http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3975411

    ReplyDelete
  24. maybe he was not there yet


    because other assassins would outshine his burst while having more versatility
    "ahri leblanc fizz syndra"
    then
    when dfg got nerfed he started getting room middle lane because of his low cooldowns maybe?

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  25. SSJSuntasticSeptember 07, 2014

    DFG nerfs probably helped a bit :)

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  26. Full AP Blitzcrank; the new ultimate assassin.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Yea, then another champs will rise to take his place, and the cycle continues.

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  28. Ponas NiekasSeptember 07, 2014

    "when other heroes do a gap close there is usually a lot of twinkle twinkle and etc on screen
    like zeds ult or rengars with the ! on peoples head" then talon ults u can see hes blades nearby, if u see dat u even know from with direction he's comming and may land some aoe skillshot's, u just have to be avare of him then he may come

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  29. Actually it's not hard to counter him IMO, since he is an all-in champ anything that can interrupt his combo or bait out his silence then you can CC murder him.

    ReplyDelete
  30. The one mid godSeptember 07, 2014

    I think comparing talon now to before is unfair. Yes hes quite stronger now. But the way riot does things with mid almost ever champ mid will have their day. I mean at one point heimerdinger was the strongest mid along with lucian lol. I think that while many of the second statements are true now, so are the statements from a year ago. Back then we had high mobility champs that if you didn't kill them instantly they just kite talon and kill him. And if you ever got behind on talon you were done. Now with lb, ahri, gragas. nid, ziggs, etc. not where they were. Also, we are shifting back to the meta in which these comments were made which is the last assassin mid meta. But all the champs from last time, plus the dfg nerf, mean that he's untouched despite all the nerfs to everyone else which just moves him up. Pair that with the fact that hes the only assassin that they didn't remove the silence? Lets look at another comment, "Talon has a weak laning phase". Still true. One thing I find is that if you warn your laners and force them to ward and push mid constantly, if talon doesn't get a kill or two on roams he becomes useless. Talon is alot like leona in which if he's behind hes not strong but he snowballs so hard. Which makes both comments true so I don't know why you compared them. Remember when leona was the strongest support because all engage supports had been nerffed? Or how Renekton was the only top lane tank untouched and suddenly became the one god top? It's alot like that. One last thing to make my point, "Talon counters everybody" "he counters all the META champs...". Exactly, he counters the current meta. Was he a solid champ this whole time? Yeah probably. Was he a hidden god champ? No not really. He would have been destroyed so ridiculously a few patches ago. Go back to the meta two months ago. Old adcs who all had mobility and self peel, tank supports, tank top laners, stronger junglers (same junglers mostly but pre-nerf), and wave clear/poke mids. Put talon there. Every game he gets shoved to tower. Can he blow up top? No. Blow up bot? Maybe but not nearly as easily. What if he gets counterganked by jungler? Ouch. He's probably dead. Then in teamfights the ap and adc are far in the back, theres no frontline mids except maybe kass who he always destroyed and yasuo to kill. For adcs yeah he can blow them up but theyre mobile and have two or three tanks protecting them. Ultimately, the meta shifted and lots of nerfs made him the better mid. I'd also argue that the botrk change plus how common it is for mids to take exhaust now makes him the best ad assassin in terms of less counterplay (looking at you zed). I don't think it's fair to say "I told you so" when no you actually didn't. He wasn't strong then and the meta shifted to make him strong. Every assassin except fizz kat and akali got nerffed or changed. Hey look dfg got nerffed. Hey look ap tops are more popular and double ap comps are easier to itemize against. Hey look stealth has been changed. Hey look bot lane now has two immobile squishies. Hey look mid lane no longer has laners who farm half way across the lane. Hey look the mobility is lower in the game now. So kudos to you for saying he was strong. But if I said "one day heimerdinger will be pick/ban" then was like HAHA TOLD YOU SO that doesn't make me right if I claimed he was strong back then. If you meant this post, like you do your tier lists, for bronze-gold, then I can't make these points as well because of the ease to play talon as well as map awareness on roaming and how bad people are at farming etc. But for plat or diamond (I am diamond 2), if you picked talon first pick a half a year ago you would get sh*t on and be useless unless the other team just messed up bad (or you were a talon main in which case enjoy this meta while it lasts!!!) I just read this feeling like you were kinda patting yourself on the back saying "I told you so".

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  31. SSJSuntasticSeptember 07, 2014

    All valid points :)

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  32. The one mid godSeptember 07, 2014

    Sorry if that came off as me being a dick but I just dont agree with the fact that he was god tier before and only now we realize it. On that note, why do you think swain and velkoz are god tier? If I see a swain or velkoz mid im really happy. Velkoz more than swain for one. The list is for bronze-gold right? Ok I see how swain can be up there. It baffles me that katarina isnt as I got my smurf to plat simply spamming kat and syndra. Kat is relatively simple and at lower elo shes not that easy to play against. I would also argue that theres a hidden psychological aspect when people see a katarina picked. In lower elo especially, when people see kat picked, everyone picks a champ to stop her ult. It might not even be their best champ, but they feel the need to have everyone stop her ult. This puts them often on weaker champs. Just a thought. Lets think about swain. Yes ok more and more as I think about it in lower elo everyone runs face first into everyone in teamfights and his ult makes him a god. Combine that with no skillshots and wow. Ok fair enough. But velkoz? Sure his ult is good and you dont need to be fed to do much with it. But his q is harder to hit than you think for less mechanical players. especially if they arent used to velkoz. And for this list we are assuming that these arent velkoz and swain mains right? Where they have been playing them for months. Because if they are id argue more mechanically demanding champs are even stronger. Velkoz doesnt snowball at all because of his poor scaling. I know you can say "can't argue with winrate" but heimerdinger and malz both have a higher winrate than him. There are probably lots of velkoz mains that stomp with him. But I dont see him as a replacement for ziggs or xerath. Hes a bit easier to use ok sure. But the number of tanks is less so his passive is less useful. Pair that with the poor scalings in a elo that stacks damage and doesnt understand utility? Maybe not god tier. Tier 1 ok but god tier? Above kat? Cmon SSJ you're better than that.

    ReplyDelete
  33. The one mid godSeptember 07, 2014

    Don't mean to sound like a dick! Just wanted to make a point :) I just think its a bit unfair to not take into account the changes. I will admit, never in my wildest dreams did I think he would be played competitively.

    ReplyDelete
  34. SSJSuntasticSeptember 07, 2014

    Although people pick champions that can stop Katarina, a lot of times those same champions are more troublesome than ones they would have picked otherwise. Most players like playing high damage champions as their first priority, but when they start selecting high CC champions like Amumu or Nautilus it's actually much more annoying for the rest of the team as well compared to crowd favorites like Lee Sin or Rengar.


    Everyone has an opinion on Katarina, last time I put her in god tier there was a ton of backlash. Meanwhile, nobody knows about Vel'koz so I just get a few ??? once in a while ;)


    Katarina is definitely a strong champion to carry through both in normal play and on smurfs. You can't let your person experience as a Diamond 2 carrying to plat weigh in too heavily though. For instance, I ran a few games from silver through gold as mid blitzcrank yesterday (so cruel) and smashed a bunch of otherwise "meta" champions including tf, ahri, and talon.

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  35. SSJSuntasticSeptember 07, 2014

    It's kind of funny that you mention that a single item can counter him. I actually find that as Malz, I end up doing much more in a peeling role than a carry killing role, I leave that up to the bruisers.


    Malz' percentage based magic damage is insane, and with pool combined with Liandries makes short work of pretty much any bruiser (Renekton and Nasus are my favorites). Luckily tanks don't usually get Quicksilver :)


    I do think he's pretty good, which is why he's in Tier 1, but similar to Katarina, he's one of those champions that EVERYONE has an opinion about, and I can't say he's that much more deserving of God tier vs high Tier 1 so I put him in the path of least resistance.

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  36. He's only OP now because of nerfs to the other asassins and the removal of silences from most other mid laners with it (Kass, Lb). Not really a reason to go all "I was right all along losers!!" about him.

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  37. SSJSuntasticSeptember 07, 2014

    The point being, all strengths and weaknesses that people have said about Talon is just as relevant and true now as it was back then.

    ReplyDelete
  38. what I have to say, if you like "assassin" you like Talon if you don't like or you are not good with (assassin) Talon sux :)
    I love Talon even if i think I'm not very good with an assassin general type of champ

    ReplyDelete
  39. Talon was probably the hardest counter to pre-nerf Kassadin and went even with pre-nerf LeBlanc, so I don't know why he was considered inferior.

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  40. Ap Blitz is lame, ghost blade Blitz is the real deal

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  41. Lol, i just learned something new

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  42. Back in my day ADC's were exclusively played in mid lane!

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  43. Now I really need to try that...
    Same with playing around with the current xerath bug. free aa for semi-global range.

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  44. SquirrelNutkinsSeptember 09, 2014

    We will live, and they will die!

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  45. Truth.

    Pre-nerfs, Talon was a shitty version of Zed. Now every other assassin has been nerfed while he's been untouched, so he's the best by default.

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  46. ScrandasaurusSeptember 10, 2014

    I'm been lurking on this blog for a while. I remember reading the original post back in Dec, it also roughly coincided with him being on rotation. I decided to pick him up, rushing brutalizer, mobis and tiamat, and roaming, roaming, Roaming - mainly bot. He's been one of my favorite champions ever since. As a top main, I really enjoy his all-in playstyle. Besides pushing lane with tiamat wave clear and one shotting caster minions with w then roaming, the key thing to know is when to engage and when not to. All of these things (I believe) were detailed in your December post.


    Good job SSJ. You were spot on.

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  47. ScrandasaurusSeptember 10, 2014

    Even pre nerf LB, Talon could go toe to toe with. It all depended on reaction time - who could get their silence off first.

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  48. wtf who said Talon can't beat Katarina? he just saves his silence to cancel her ult and she cant do anything

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  49. LOL AT THE COUNTERS FROM BEFORE: "His prey is his true counter, DEFINATELY not Swain!" (Xerath, Lux)

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  50. EpicLightningSeptember 12, 2014

    I miss the days whenever counter-play was so important. The days when champions had extreme strengths but crippling weaknesses. It was in those days that TRUE skill on the battlefield was displayed. For example: LeBlanc; my dear, sweet LeBlanc. A champion you could jump in with and completely annihilate an enemy champion, but you had to pick well your time of jumping, lest you get yourself into the middle of 3+ people, cost your team a late-game fight and lose. This game has gotten dumbed down so much; it's reminiscent of (for those of you who play WoW) LFR. :-/ Nowadays it seems to be that lanes are decided by whoever picks the better counter. This is obviously evidenced by the EXTREME Elo pyramid that has developed. Instead of being a proper 50% Bronze 25% Silver 12.5% Gold 6.25% Platinum 5% Diamond and 1.25% Challenger, the pyramid is skewed to where 90% of players are in "Bronze". Riot Games is increasingly destroying this game and it is because they do not listen to the playerbase in regards to champions. They try to base everything on statistics and assume that the average League player is at about the IQ level of a monkey. A major example is with LeBlanc. Though people thought she was super strong, 'twas a very minute minority that wanted her silence removed. Riot only speaks to so-called "professionals" regarding changes whenever it comes to the player-base. The rest of us are stuck with that crap. What sets them apart from us? Mainly contracts.

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  51. Honestly, I think Zed is better than Talon. Talon is pretty much just one and done. Kill one champ, run out. Zed can stay in for a while and pull off some crazy shit. However, I do prefer to play Talon because I love the all in one champs like him that just instagib enemies. My favorite champ is Rengar, although with his recent nerfs I'm starting to find him less and less useful and powerful. I don't see what the point of the indicator is honestly. It just makes it so hard to play him anymore, and the increased range on the indicator to the point that they can see when you're about to jump them, before you even do. Any good player will just run away when they see that signal. Any bad player will die. He feeds off stupidity, which is why he probably is the best jungler for low ranked games, or normals.
    Talon the other hand, has a stealth, and a blink/silence, and an aoe. He's really good at just about everything. Honestly, I kept telling my friend: "Fizz, Talon, Zed, and Yasuo are the best mid laners in game right now" back in patch 4.12, and he didn't believe me. Now he goes apeshit and tries to ban them out every game. I also told him that Riven was still really strong, and he didn't believe me. Same with Rengar. Well look now, with Riven starting to rise again, I think he's actually starting to see that I am right on some things.

    I still think that for higher ranked play, Zed is a better choice.

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  52. I think Talon is Better at killing a Target maybe even Multiple. Zed hsd much more mobility and range though and has a better Early

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  53. Which is exactly why I prefer him. A strong early game can lead to shutting down enemies, and stopping them from reaching late game potential. I think Zed even has a better late game than Talon. Talon will just kinda try to Rake the whole team to death. Zed will use his shadows and ult and kill everyone.

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  54. Its only because so many other mid champions have been nerfed allowing him to climb the tier list. Also the meta changes frequently and exhaust has been nerfed so its just his time to shine

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  55. EpicLightningSeptember 27, 2014

    She was definitely not too strong...as there were tons of counter-play options. Consider Akali, Talon, Kassadin, Morgana, and Fizz who could all easily shut down LeBlanc. Removing the silence makes her less fun to play as that silence was a type of very quick "protection" against the enemy being able to turn around and smash her in the face. No, the reason they removed it is because they seems to think their community is incapable of making the counter-plays necessary.

    Don't make me laugh about Riot as a business. They listen to VERY few players...I have made a plethora of forum posts before that got numerous support from the community and yet not one Rioter responded. They do not listen to logic and reason. They say things go against their "design" values, but half of those things, I can EASILY turn around and show exactly how they completely follow the design values of the game and that it is just used as an excuse to make some change. Speaking of "appealing" to people...most of the player base ***HATED*** the change to LeBlanc. Have you looked at her status now? She went from being pick-or-ban tier to have literally the lowest win rate outside of Urgot. They destroyed her. I seriously doubt we will see her at all in the Season 4 Championships.

    If you want an example of a business that REALLY listen to their player-base, look at Blizzard.

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  56. Jester SeraphSeptember 27, 2014

    Considering the only thing fans wanted in Diablo 3 was just an improved Diablo 2, Blizzard failed horribly. Not to mention the 15 dollar recolor skins in their moba...


    Like I said, LeBlanc's change was to improve player experience for other players against her. the only counter play to a silence like that is staying outside the range of her distortion. When LeBlanc was popular, everyone was playing her because of how strong she was. She was dominating the competitive scene and high levels of play, as well as snowballing lower levels out of control. Even if she wasn't "that" strong, she was still more powerful than any of the meta in the mid lane at the time.


    I've gone into numerous articles, posts, AMA's, and the odd forum post, and found Riot members answering. There's this issue called Riot has MILLIONS of players and only a hand full of employees who can actually go about reading threads and such, and even fewer who are in the specific department that runs whatever it is you're talking about. That's why there are designated times and places where they say "guys I'll be available from now until then. Talk to me and I'll answer to the best of my ability."


    Yes, she got quite heavily weakened by that removal of a silence. Yes, she's gone down the tube from it. No, Riot isn't ignoring her. They've just recently made some new changes as a start to trying to give her back some of that power without just giving her even bigger numbers. They're searching for ways to improve the rewards for mastering LeBlanc. They aren't the only changes they'll make to her, they're just adding in bits and pieces to see how players react and LeBlanc manages. There's a lot of work to be done and bringing champions who have fallen out of the meta back in is a lot harder than dropping the god tier from their high horse. There's also a lot more champions who need that focus for getting back into the meta such as the new Sion rework. It's a big game with 121 champions. They can't drop everything in order to go back and touch up a champion the second they find out it's not strong enough to be played. There's a priority level to every action and that one isn't the highest.


    Mid lane assassins with a silence have now all been removed since the Talon nerf. It wasn't just LeBlanc, it was part of a trend which was "if you can burst someone down in the speed of a silence, then once they're silenced there's no possible counter-play until they've respawned and made it back to lane."

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  57. And then they took away his silence. :(

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